In this episode, Julie and Karinda dive deep into the often misunderstood world of Vitamin D. From an in-depth discussion on its history, functions, and the difference between Vitamin D obtained via sunlight versus supplementation, this episode covers it all. They explore emerging research that reveals Vitamin D is more akin to a hormone than a vitamin and discuss the critical roles it plays in our bodies, such as regulating bone health, modulating the immune system, and even its potential anti-cancer benefits. The episode also delves into the importance of natural sunlight exposure, the insufficiency of vitamin D supplementation alone, and the surprising relationship between vitamin D and melatonin. Tune in for a comprehensive exploration that challenges common misconceptions and emphasizes the elegance of natural biochemical processes.

~

MENTIONED IN THIS EP:

⁠https://www.jforresternaturopath.com.au/blog/vitamin-d-sunshine⁠

⁠https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9066576/⁠

⁠https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7692961/⁠

⁠https://etymologyworld.com/item/vitamin⁠

⁠https://youtu.be/wQJlGHVmdrA?si=CaYWb_9sVtqVauWS⁠

⁠https://holisticprimarycare.net/topics/nutrition-a-lifestyle/sulfate-the-most-common-nutritional-deficiency-you-ve-never-heard-of/⁠

~

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 Introduction and Jingle Brainstorming

01:22 Welcome and Episode Overview

02:27 Debunking Vitamin D Myths

03:24 Historical Context of Vitamin D

06:25 Vitamin D and Health Misconceptions

10:24 The Role of Sunlight in Vitamin D Production

17:38 Challenges of Vitamin D Supplementation

30:27 Sunlight Exposure and Health Benefits

35:39 The Cooling Power of Trees

36:47 Vitamin D3 Sulfate and Cholesterol Sulfate

40:26 The Role of Melatonin

43:16 The Importance of Sunlight and Darkness

53:02 Vitamin D's Multifaceted Benefits

01:00:27 Historical Insights on Vitamins

01:02:17 Closing Thoughts and Listener Engagement

~

Reach out to the Nuanced Naturopaths⁠⁠⁠ ⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠! Send us your feedback, questions & episode requests.

⁠⁠⁠Check out our Nuanced & Nourished Membership here⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠⁠Connect with us on Instagram⁠⁠⁠

~

CONNECT WITH JULIE:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Email⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Book in with Julie⁠⁠⁠⁠

CONNECT WITH KARINDA:

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Email⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠

• ⁠⁠⁠⁠Book in with Karinda⁠⁠⁠

~

DISCLAIMER FOR PUBLIC: The contents of this podcast or any information mentioned is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you're seeking assistance with your health, please contact an accredited healthcare professional. If you'd like personalised support with your health, you can book a session with Julie or Karinda using the links above.

DISCLAIMER FOR HEALTH PRACTITIONERS: The content provided is intended for entertainment and educational purposes. The information discussed in this podcast is not a substitute for professional training. While the authors/hosts make every effort to provide the most up-to-date data and evidence on naturopathic information, this content should not necessarily be considered standard of care and may not reflect individual practices within or outside of Australia.

~

The Nuanced Naturopaths Podcast is a friendly conversation between two friends, us! Karinda and Julie. We’re passionate about finding the nuance in natural health. As degree-qualified naturopaths, we like to ask the questions that need to be asked - about all aspects of health, healing and well-being. We delight in questioning firmly held beliefs and finding the nuance in all subjects health-related and beyond. Sometimes it can get a little technical, but hopefully we explain things in a way that's accessible to anyone interested in natural health, whether you’re a practitioner or someone who wants to learn more and optimise your wellbeing. It’s a chat about poop, periods and everything in between - buckle up for a laugh, a cry and for some things you are yet to consider about your health! Stay nuanced!

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Julie: Oh. Oh. You can sing it again. I don't think we can do that every, every podcast. No, I know. You're right. We just, sometimes we have to let the music play itself. Yeah. But earlier today, I came

[00:00:23] Karinda: up with a really cool jingle that can go to the music.

[00:00:27] Julie: Oh, okay. Do that.

[00:00:30] Karinda: So you know how this, this could be totally edited out so you know how it goes.

[00:00:39] I thought we could do, here we are, we're the nu-anced natu-ro-paths and we're gonna talk to you about, let's do that and, and then I forgot, I didn't really come up with the rest, so I would be totally improvising.

[00:00:55] Julie: Yeah. Okay.

[00:00:57] Karinda: Here we are. We're the nuanced naturopaths, neuro naturopaths. We're here [00:01:00] to talk to you about

[00:01:02] Julie: your health and stuff.

[00:01:06] Do it, do

[00:01:11] Karinda: we'll save the proper singing for next time, but for, for this episode, we'll just include the behind the scenes of coming up with the jingle.

[00:01:18] Julie: Okay.

[00:01:19] I think that sounds, that sounds good.

[00:01:22] Karinda: Welcome to another episode of the Nuanced Naturopaths. Sounds like I'm gonna cry. Hello. Hello. Thanks for clicking or tapping on us today. Yeah, thank you for listening.

[00:01:37] Today is a juicy one that has been on the, it's it's overdue. Yeah, it was on the list that got deleted, didn't it? It is, it was on the list that got deleted, unfortunately. And we rebooted it and we put it to the top of our "to record priority list" because there is, I mean. My goodness. [00:02:00] Misinformation, um, misunderstanding, um, grasping at straws almost.

[00:02:07] Mm-hmm. This molecule gets blamed for so much and

[00:02:14] Julie: the poor little thing, the poor little thing. It didn't do anything.

[00:02:18] Karinda: It didn't do anything other than respond to sunlight and inflammation. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:24] Julie: Which is its job.

[00:02:26] Karinda: Which is its job.

[00:02:27] I was thinking we could call this "Vitamin D isn't what you think it is." I feel like that's a bit of a clickbait title, but.

[00:02:37] Yeah.

[00:02:38] It isn't what we think it is.

[00:02:39] It isn't

[00:02:39] what, it isn't we're taught it is, um, it's not even a vitamin really. Exactly, and that's gonna be one of our major points today. It is more, it's more akin to a hormone.

[00:02:51] Would you say that? Yeah. Would you agree with that? Yep. Yeah.

[00:02:54] I wonder, I mean, maybe we won't delve into the history, but I wonder what [00:03:00] determined its original classification as one of the fat soluble vitamins.

[00:03:08] Julie: I feel like I've come across this in my, in my readings, but I can't recall what it was.

[00:03:13] I'm gonna quickly look it up now.

[00:03:15] If the answer is easy, I will include it.

[00:03:18] Yeah. If it's not, because I think there's a good story with it, but I just can't remember what it is.

[00:03:23] Okay. There's an article from 2022 called "a hundred Years of Vitamin D, historical aspects of Vitamin D." It has many physiological functions, upper upregulation of intestinal calcium and phosphate absorption.

[00:03:37] Karinda: Oh, this is actually a good intro to like, what can vitamin D do in the textbook kind of way? Yeah. Okay. Um,

[00:03:43] mobilization of bone resorption, renal reabsorption of calcium, as well as actions on a variety of pleio tropic functions. What it

[00:03:53] means the production by a single gene of two or more appropriately unrelated effects. There you go.

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] Oh, okay. It is believed that many of the hormonal effects of vitamin D involve a 1 25 dihydroxy, vitamin D 3, vitamin D receptor mediated transcriptional mechanism involving binding to the cellular chromatin, and regulating hundreds of genes in many tissues. Wow. The discovery of vitamin D stretching from 1650. Wow. What? Okay. The history of vitamin D is a rich hand storied subject. Now we're over 350 years old. It began in the early 1600s with the first descriptions of the human deficiency disease rickets in children, of course, and osteo malacia in adults. Rickets.

[00:04:44] How could we, how could we forget about the rickets? Yeah. There were no precise medical details that distinguished it from other bone diseases, but treatises describing the symptoms and lithographs from that time showing bone deformities resembling rickets

[00:04:58] leave little doubt [00:05:00] that was vitamin D deficiency. It took another 250 years to define the cause of vitamin D deficiency in the 1900 to 1920 period when physicians and biochemists elucidated the role of sunlight and identified the chemical structure of the two main forms of vitamin D of the vitamin D molecule, vitamin D two and vitamin D three.

[00:05:23] Another 50 years elapsed before the metabolism of vitamin D was first described in 1967 and the active form of vitamin D, namely 1 25 di hydroxy, vitamin D was discovered. Period of time since has witnessed the exciting realization that vitamin D has its own set of dedicated specialized machinery consisting of transport proteins, metabolic enzymes, and vitamin D receptor (VDR), to mediate the actions of vitamin D, not only in bone, but also in many other tissues around the body where it has a myriad [00:06:00] of different physiological effects.

[00:06:02] Oh, and then it says, before we get into the history, I thought, is that alright? Lemme,

[00:06:07] Julie: wasn't, wasn't that the history? Also, it does say there the active form 25 OHD.

[00:06:14] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:06:16] Julie: So I just wanna reference that point before we go any further. Well, not before we go any further, but to, to come back to,

[00:06:24] Karinda: yeah. Oh yes, definitely.

[00:06:25] Um, because, and again, would you say that that is a straight off the bat, a good example of the; how this vitamin is so misconstrued and, and misunderstood. Misunderstood. Our, at the very least, our understanding of it is limited. Yeah.

[00:06:41] So as in this article, they go on to say Vitamin D deficiency is partly the result of inadequate skin synthesis of vitamin D three from seven dehydro cholesterol, compounded by a low dietary intake of Vitamin D two from plant or fungal sources.

[00:06:58] Or D three from [00:07:00] animal products. The advent of the industrial revolution in Western Europe heralded in massive air pollution in the form of smoke from mills and burning of fossil fuels. This dramatically reduced the amount of UV light reaching the ground. Since the workers needed for these new industrial jobs were required to move from their rural locations into dingy, poorly lit cities, their exposure to uv light diminished and skin synthesis of vitamin D was reduced.

[00:07:29] Rickets resulted and was associated with lack of exposure to sufficient sunlight. Thus the 18th and 19th centuries saw a higher increase in rickets in the industrialized cities of Northern Europe. Oh, wow.

[00:07:44] Julie: Interesting. So it talked about, uh, dietary sources of vitamin D two. Mm-hmm. Combined with, um, skin conversion. But we know now that that's actually skin conversion acting on cholesterol, not [00:08:00] dietary sources of vitamin D two. Yeah. So what was the date of that paper? The date is,

[00:08:04] Karinda: uh,

[00:08:04] Julie: March,

[00:08:05] Karinda: 2022.

[00:08:06] Julie: Oh,

[00:08:06] Karinda: but this is going through the history?

[00:08:08] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, so they're referencing things that, that yeah. That may have been updated. We'll link this paper in the, in the show notes 'cause it's, it's very interesting.

[00:08:17] So despite the fact that rickets seemed to be associated with lack of exposure to sunlight by the late 1700s some including Perceval in the UK were advocating the use of cod liver oil for the treatment of rickets, suggesting a nutritional aspect to vitamin D.

[00:08:35] In contrast, in the early 1800s, so a century later, uh, SNY decky in Poland was documenting the differential incidents in city dwellers and rural dwellers suggesting some environmental factors involved. He speculated that sunlight or fresh air might be involved in the etiology of the disease. By the end of the [00:09:00] 19th century, a rigorous debate roared on whether rickets was caused by the lack of some dietary substance or an environmental factor, and how could these two points of view be reconciled?

[00:09:13] Interest. Wow. And then they did, some researchers in the 1890s did some studies. They provided evidence that there was a big geographical difference in the incidence of rickets. Comparing parts of the UK to northern and southern China. A medical missionary went on to suggest that exposure of children to sunlight would cure rickets.

[00:09:36] And then researchers in Europe and the United States performed experiments in which laboratory animals and children with rickets could be cured with sunlight,

[00:09:48] Julie: Oh, interesting. probably because there'd be some element of infrared in a, in a mercury arc lamp.

[00:09:55] Karinda: Yeah. Interesting. And then, um, and so that was when they said, okay, [00:10:00] this, we, this clearly demonstrates in multiple countries that it's lack of UV light exposure that was one cause of rickets.

[00:10:09] Interesting. Also, shout out to like awful diseases for helping to pave the way for like deeper understanding of these things, right? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Wow. Okay. There's much more talk about cod liver oil anyway. Mm-hmm. Let's, let's get into what we wanna say and, and where do we start?

[00:10:31] Julie: And where do we start?

[00:10:32] Well, I guess we start at the beginning. When most people think of vitamin D, when your doctor is talking about vitamin D. Mm-hmm. When you look at the vitamin D on the shelf. In most cases, they're talking about this one molecule, which is the, we'll refer to as 25 OHD. Mm-hmm. Because I mean, you might wanna say [00:11:00] the whole name.

[00:11:00] No, let's not say the whole name.

[00:11:01] Karinda: The 1 25 Hydroxy Co. Is it Cholecalciferol or no?

[00:11:07] Julie: 25 hydroxy. Vitamin D "Ergocalciferol."

[00:11:13] Karinda: Oh, okay. Oh. So yeah, it's easy than I thought.

[00:11:16] Julie: 25 oh HD is what's tested, is what's tested in a blood test.

[00:11:21] In a blood test. It is the molecule that is found in the serum, and this is where a lot of tests are done on molecules that are found in the blood. Mm-hmm. Because it's a convenient way of seeing what's in circulation. Mm-hmm. But what's in circulation doesn't necessarily reflect whether the tissues of the body that require the use of that particular molecule mm-hmm.

[00:11:52] Have sufficient. And this is really where the problem starts, isn't it? Yep. Just because [00:12:00] something is in the blood, doesn't mean it's also in the tissues, or that it's in the same quantity in the tissues. Yep.

[00:12:10] Karinda: I guess to summarize, but maybe with a bit more information, what does 25 oh vitamin D reflect to us in a blood test?

[00:12:19] When we see that number, we know that it's reflecting one kind of vitamin D storage. Yeah. That's in our blood. Yeah. And I, I think in your words, that it's a proxy for sunlight exposure. It can be reflective of, or, or would you say def definitively is a measure of how exposed we are to sunlight?

[00:12:44] Julie: Well, this is a new hypothesis. I don't know that anybody has published anything that says that that 25 oh HD serum 25 oh HD [00:13:00] is a proxy for sunlight. Mm-hmm. It's just that when you, when you look at the way that vitamin D is, um, made and metabolized

[00:13:09] Karinda: mm-hmm.

[00:13:10] Julie: Um, then that's really the best explanation is that it's a proxy for sunlight exposure.

[00:13:17] Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:18] Because we can't measure all of the other metabolites. Right. Right. We, we don't have a way of measuring those.

[00:13:25] So one of the other things that we have to talk about is that this 25 oh HD is what we call an acute phase reactant. Mm-hmm. So in the presence of disease states, inflammation, mitochondrial dysfunction, any number of diseases.

[00:13:45] Would we include infections in that? In infections? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:49] One of the things that is, is useful for fighting those infections is this vitamin D molecule. Mm-hmm. And so when [00:14:00] we have a disease state, let's take COVID for example, because that was one that, that was used recently in the discussion about vitamin D.

[00:14:09] Yeah. Um, it was discovered that all of the patients who were hospitalized with the, the most serious, um, uh, and severe symptoms of COVID had low vitamin D status. So regardless of what other comorbidities they may have or, or not had, they all consistently had low vitamin D. Mm-hmm. Which, which caused people to say

[00:14:37] that this is the cause of the severe symptoms. Low vitamin D causes this disease state, when in actual fact it's the other way round. Mm-hmm. Having the disease state causes the low vitamin D. Yeah. So you use, you using it up

[00:14:56] Karinda: and as we, as we know, the cliche that gets repeated so often [00:15:00] in the medical and scientific worlds is a "correlation does not equal causation."

[00:15:05] So we know that there's a correlation between low vitamin D and these disease states. It doesn't mean, as you said, that low vitamin D is what caused these disease states Yeah. To be as severe as, as they were. Yeah. Um, so is it our, is it, is it our immune systems? Recruiting and utilizing vitamin D to manage the inflammation, to manage the pathogen.

[00:15:33] Do we know that much or would that be just be speculation?

[00:15:37] Julie: Uh, that would be speculation on my part. Okay. Because I dunno the answer to that question

[00:15:44] Karinda: and I, 'cause I'm just thinking you, so you know how we've spoken about how, um, ferritin with our storage form of iron is also an accused phase reactant. And I just think about how pathogens, so I guess specifically in the case of infections, um, pathogens [00:16:00] will use iron, um, as part of their attack forward on our bodies.

[00:16:08] And so I'm just wondering if vitamin D is utilized by pathogens or if it's just such an important, um, tool that our immune system has to use, um, because it has so many important functions and can influence so many genes. That it's our immune systems recruiting it and pulling it out of storage. Or is it the pathogens being like, oh, we can benefit from this too, when using that.

[00:16:33] And that's much of a muchness. It doesn't even matter. That's just my brain wanting, wanting to know the answers.

[00:16:39] Julie: Again, I don't know hundred percent but I believe that it is its role in the immune response in resolving the infection.

[00:16:49] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:16:50] Julie: Yeah. Um, it's

[00:16:52] Karinda: a part of our defense rather than the pathogens attack.

[00:16:55] Julie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so pathogens use vitamin, uh, iron as a, as a [00:17:00] substrate. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But when it comes to vitamin D, I think it's the other way around. Our body uses the vitamin D. As part of the immune response, and I'm not, I'm just not sure which part, but

[00:17:11] Karinda: Yeah, no, that's okay.

[00:17:12] And I think that's a, I think that's a healthy speculation and, and see folks here at the nuanced naturopaths sometimes we're just figuring it out, you know, we don't, we don't claim to have all the answers. We love hypothesizing.

[00:17:24] Julie: Absolutely. So, so why then is the question, so we have all these disease states, the thing that they have in common is low vitamin D.

[00:17:38] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:17:40] Julie: So then we just supplement with vitamin D. Right, right.

[00:17:43] Karinda: End of episode.

[00:17:44] Julie: Yeah. Done. No, no, that's not what happened. When they started to realize this, this pattern of, you know, disease states, low vitamin D. So they started doing some research, they, the [00:18:00] researchers of the world.

[00:18:01] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:02] Julie: Um, and they started throwing all sorts of dosages of vitamin D at people and they got the response of no change. Mm. So that it makes you then start questioning, is it the vitamin D that's the problem? Mm. And uh, or is it that we are supplementing only specific types of vitamin D mm-hmm. When in the body we actually make a myriad of different molecules.

[00:18:43] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:44] Julie: When we manufacture vitamin D ourselves from from the sunlight.

[00:18:49] Karinda: Mm-hmm. This, I feel like there's a good way to, um, or there's like a phrase that would summarize it and no phrase comes to mind. I just feel like it [00:19:00] exists. But this is a great example of where the process is more important than the outcome.

[00:19:07] It's not a matter of supplement the vitamin D to get your level to this number, to get your level of one marker of vitamin D, only one fat soluble marker that happens to be a form of vitamin D stored in your blood. That it's not the goal to just get that number higher. No cer and certainly not through supplementation.

[00:19:31] I mean, of course if we see it, I, if I see a blood test result of 25 oh vitamin D three. Uh, that's hovering around 20 or less than 50. I'm like, oh, okay. Well I, yeah, we need to work on this. But, and admittedly, I've prescribed a lot of vitamin D supplementation in the past. I've even got my mom on daily vitamin D supplementation.

[00:19:57] I actually asked her the other day, I was like, wait, do you [00:20:00] take this every day? And she's like, yeah, I need to, and I thought, oh, and now admittedly, I'm having harder and more direct conversations with patients about, sorry, babe. Like, not even sorry babes. But like, we are realizing the research is demonstrating that it's the process of sunlight on your skin directly UVB light on your skin directly, and the process that happens in your body, the cascade that starts in your body, that is much more effective.

[00:20:32] At resolving a lot of things. Side note, not just getting that number up. Mm mm But helping with a lot of different areas of health, more than take 1000 to 10,000 IU of this liposomal D three spray. It's better because it's directly absorbed. 'cause it's liposomal through the, you know. Yeah. I kind of wanna, I'm, and I'm challenging myself to think more deeply about vitamin D, not just [00:21:00] jumping to the supplement.

[00:21:01] And just really encouraging and reminding people the importance of old school sunlight.

[00:21:07] Julie: Yeah. I did start, um, prescribing vitamin D in, in the early days. Yeah. But this, this question about supplementing your way out of. Mm-hmm. You know, supplementing your way out of a poor diet, supplementing your way out of lifestyle choices supplementing your way.

[00:21:31] It's just, it's, the more that we talk about this, we, the more we look at it, the more I'm starting to question every single supplement, which makes it even more difficult. You know, I've got some patients at the moment that have got some really complex things going on and things that we need to address quickly.

[00:21:54] And so I'm really agonizing over every single supplement [00:22:00] because this is just a, an example of, of one of the ways that supplementing is not necessarily what you need.

[00:22:11] Karinda: Yes. Oh, and, and I absolutely echo that sentiment and, and feel your pain. 'cause I've been really grappling with it. Recently, like with my own patients, and it's just reminding me, I, I, I, I, I mentioned this book in another episode, but I just always come back to,

[00:22:31] uh, yes, the nutrient Bible because I think, I'm not even sure if this book explicitly states it or if it was Henry Ozzy Eki that kind of got it cemented in my mind that I hope I'm not mixing up concepts here, but the concept of hormesis in that there will be an amount of a nutrient that will correct a frank deficiency and that we will feel a difference on if there was a frank [00:23:00] deficiency.

[00:23:01] But at a, at this end of the spectrum, if we're taking such, such a low amount, it's not changing anything. And equally, if we take too much it, it's no longer doing anything physiologically.

[00:23:14] The Wikipedia says hormesis is the stimulation of a beneficial adaptive response by a low dose of a potentially harmful stressor, such as a toxin or environmental factor. Ah, okay.

[00:23:24] Julie: Well, because, because often when something is say in, in, in deficit,

[00:23:31] Karinda: it

[00:23:32] Julie: creates an excess of something else, you know, because if you've got something that's an antioxidant say, and then you have, so then you have an excess of, of, um, pro-inflammatory molecules like, um, re reactive oxidant species or mm-hmm.

[00:23:49] So it's having that effect, that low effect is causing a higher effect of something else that's putting a pressure on.

[00:23:56] Karinda: Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm, I just feel bad 'cause I [00:24:00] forgot what my, um, I forgot why I even took us on that rabbit hole.

[00:24:03] Julie: You said the, the book, um, yeah. You refer to Henry Aki.

[00:24:08] Karinda: Okay. I think I was trying to say that perhaps the best way to use any nutritional supplement. But in this context, vitamin D is like, okay, yes. When there's a frank deficiency, there may be room, there may be call for supplementation always to a point. Hmm. There will be a point, unless, unless there is a genetic mutation or a chronic condition that is continually driving down a level of a certain vitamin or mineral that you need consistent supplementation to stay on top of it.

[00:24:46] There will be a point where most people, I guess B vitamins, I think of as like the most common example. You start a supplement, you feel heaps better for a week, two weeks, a month, a couple months, and then [00:25:00] it gets to a point where you don't feel a difference anymore because nutritional supplementation works best when it's correcting a deficiency or when we are using really specific therapeutic doses to do something quite drastic in the body.

[00:25:13] Hmm. And vitamin D supplementation. Yeah. So when I think about that concept, and I also think about Dr. Ben Lynch, who is a, um, a huge proponent of that concept as well, of like, if you stop feeling better, if I prescribe you a nutrient and it makes change, as soon as you stop noticing that change, you don't need it anymore, stop taking that nutrient.

[00:25:36] And I just think vitamin D fits well into that picture of this is not something we need to be chronically supplementing with no matter how long your vitamin D levels on a blood test have been low for, or Oh, I see. Now, okay. Here's a question. Mm. I was gonna say, no matter how much your exposure to sunlight is lacking, but is that, [00:26:00] is, is there a case where if someone was like, "Nope.

[00:26:06] Absolutely can't get more sunlight?" Mm. Would you supplement with D.

[00:26:12] Julie: Maybe, yeah. It's still not a, but see, you're still putting a bandaid on. Yeah. Like it's, you know, it's, it's because we know that there are molecules, like, um, was it tachysterol and lumesterol

[00:26:29] Mm-hmm. So, uh, so lumesterol interacts with the liver X receptor mm-hmm. And is responsible for inflammatory cascades, optimizing cholesterol and triglyceride metabolism.

[00:26:41] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:42] Julie: So you wouldn't have lumesterol if you are not making your own vitamin D because it's, it's only made as part of the, the cascade of, of metabolism.

[00:26:56] Karinda: Mm.

[00:26:56] Julie: And then there's tachysterol two, which is important for [00:27:00] phosphate regulation in the bones. Mm. And there's a powerful antioxidant. Um, but I mean, the, the research on these molecules is, is really only new. Mm. Mm-hmm. Um, and so the potential for all of the others, was it 25 or something other molecules?

[00:27:20] Karinda: Mm.

[00:27:20] Julie: Um, the potential for their uses to be elucidated is still there. We are still waiting to find out what they do. Yes.

[00:27:32] Karinda: Yep.

[00:27:32] Julie: If you've got somebody who has darker skin mm-hmm. They're not going to be manufacturing vitamin D as easily. Mm-hmm. Because it's often triggered in the melanin, melanin cells, in the, um, in the skin.

[00:27:45] Mm-hmm. And that darkening of skin. So when you start to get tan, you actually start to produce less Vitamin D. Oh yeah. Don't go and put sunscreen on. Yeah. That's what to improve [00:28:00] your, your vitamin D production because you are then just going to prevent making vitamin D at all. Yeah, yeah. When we talk about the sun hitting the skin, we're talking about bare skin, no moisturizer, no skin products at all.

[00:28:17] Karinda: And equally off our body, no windows,

[00:28:21] Julie: depending on the windows, but, but depending on the windows, there's a lot of American people say that. And the truth is having been an energy rater. I, I know that in Australia we only really started using low e glazing, which is the type they're talking about in America.

[00:28:38] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:38] Julie: That, that low e glazing does cut out certain frequencies of light. Mm-hmm. Particularly, the, the U-V-A-U-V-B mm-hmm. And some of the, um, red spectrum. Mm-hmm. So they're probably still allowing at least some of the, the red spectrum through.

[00:28:56] But preventing the U-V-A-B-U-V-B is, [00:29:00] is what prevents you converting on your skin.

[00:29:03] Karinda: Yep.

[00:29:03] Julie: But very few houses in Australia have u that low E glazing, and you'll know it because it's got a kind of a greenish or bluish tint to it. Oh,

[00:29:13] Karinda: okay. Right. Did you, did you say what, what sort of year or era that that came to Australia?

[00:29:19] Julie: Uh, it was a, we started doing energy ratings, well, we started doing them in 2000, but it wasn't until 2008 that we really started having any kind of, um, requirements.

[00:29:33] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:34] Julie: And so it was, it was from 2008 onwards, but it's probably gonna be 2010, 2012 before we really start to see the use of low e glazing.

[00:29:45] Karinda: Okay. So, so now being 2025 and with like lots of housing developments and stuff, would it, would it be fair to say that the newer the house,

[00:29:55] Julie: the newer the house, the more likely you are to have low e glazing in it?

[00:29:59] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:29:59] Julie: [00:30:00] Particularly if you've got double glazing. Yeah. Most often it came with low E in, in a double glazed unit, but

[00:30:07] Karinda: mm-hmm.

[00:30:07] Because it

[00:30:08] Julie: damages really easily. Oh, okay.

[00:30:10] Karinda: Interesting.

[00:30:11] Julie: My father had a whole house full of windows that he had to ship back because they got damaged in transit. Oh, geez. Because they were single low glazing. Sorry, we've dived into another, just another part. Well, well ask Julie Energy rating, Julie,

[00:30:27] Karinda: and I mean, this is what makes us the nuanced naturopaths because we'll take one aspect of sunlight hitting our skin and, and we'll unpack all the nuance there is, and I, my, my conclusion from that is that I will still, I would still probably tell all of my patients, unless it was a really dire circumstance and they knew what their windows were in their house, I would always encourage to go outside and not rely on sun through a window.

[00:30:56] Julie: Yeah.

[00:30:57] Karinda: And also, I mean, to play it safe and to make sure you're [00:31:00] getting the best effect, but also for other reasons, for the other benefits that come with being outside in nature. Right.

[00:31:08] Julie: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, even, even without low e coatings on windows, you're still gonna be refracting light and, um, altering the, the, the, the frequencies that you have access to.

[00:31:22] Yep, yep. So depending on the time of day and the angle of the sun, but you go outside, you, you are getting the terpenes from trees. Mm-hmm. You're getting birdsong that gives you safety signals. Mm-hmm. You're getting, um, the, the, the breeze in the air and the, you know, fresh, fresh air that isn't necessarily in your house.

[00:31:47] Karinda: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:31:48] Julie: You know, there's all sorts of chemical off-gassing in houses too. So you're going outside and you're getting, depending on where you are.

[00:31:56] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:31:57] Julie: Context dependent. Yeah, context dependent. [00:32:00] But yeah, go outside, get some sunshine on your skin. Get some sunshine in your eyes as well see while, while we are getting the sunshine on our skin and converting it to vitamin D mm-hmm.

[00:32:10] We're also getting those timing signals from the, the ratios of blue to red light that are in sunlight. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:18] Karinda: And that optimizes our circadian rhythm. Yes. And I don't know if I wanna touch on it yet. Tab, tab, melatonin tab, vitamin D and melatonin and that relationship. Two things I wanna touch on because we've spoken about Okay,

[00:32:34] getting yourself exposed. Let's talk about timing. Like what's, is there a particular time of day and what's a sufficient amount of time and does a part of the body matter? I have some answers to this based on things I've recently consumed, but what are your thoughts?

[00:32:52] Julie: Um, I would say I don't have anything definitive.

[00:32:58] Okay. Because [00:33:00] it depends on the type of skin that you have.

[00:33:03] Karinda: Mm. It

[00:33:03] Julie: depends where you live. Mm-hmm. It depends the time of day.

[00:33:09] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] Julie: How much cloud cover there is.

[00:33:12] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:13] Julie: Too many variables.

[00:33:15] Karinda: But even with cloud coverage, I think that's important to dispel with cloud coverage. You, there is still something happening.

[00:33:23] Julie: Oh, you still, yes, absolutely. And you, you can still get sunburnt with cloud coverage. Yeah. Oh yeah. And that's so, so if you can get sunburnt, you can, you can be manufacturing vitamin D. Yes. Because it's the UVB frequencies that, that UVB and uv. Yeah. UVB 280 to 320 nanometers. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:47] Karinda: I, what did I recently hear? I recently heard that

[00:33:55] when the sun is closer to the horizon, not when [00:34:00] it's at its highest point in the sky, can be a more effective time. Just in terms of the distance of the rays of light. I'm gonna say, uh, being closer to the ground, being better able to reach your skin. So it was, uh, where I got this information was suggesting that, uh, closer to sunrise or closer to sunset, so like morning and late afternoon were potentially better times.

[00:34:28] Julie: Okay.

[00:34:29] Karinda: Um, and also to prevent burning. Yeah. Which can be more likely when the sun is at its highest point. Yeah, that's true. And I always thought that the location of the skin mattered. But again, in this recent information, there was a suggestion that no anywhere you can get it is gonna make a difference.

[00:34:49] But particularly when as, uh, for the circadian rhythm, obviously when you're not wearing sunglasses, as long as your eyes are seeing some light, that's helping to set the timing signatures of the day, which [00:35:00] sets everything in order. But for vitamin D production, the location didn't necessarily matter. But what's, do you have any different understanding or knowledge on that?

[00:35:10] No.

[00:35:11] Julie: Okay. All, all skin has the capacity. Some skin is gonna burn easier. And, and this is, this is, if any, if I had any guideline, it is if you start to see your skin reding mm-hmm. Or getting pink. Um, then it's time to go indoors or cover up or be, I mean, you can, you can still get some benefit from, um, being in shade under trees.

[00:35:38] Mm. Mm-hmm. Because, the leaves on trees actually reflect the UVB.

[00:35:44] Karinda: That's great. Oh, that's so handy.

[00:35:46] Julie: Which is why trees are cool. Like not just cool for other reasons, but, but cool as well. Like they're actually cool. Yeah. Right. And going back to my energy rating [00:36:00] days, I used to say that they were their own little, um, evaporative, air con cooling systems because they do that too.

[00:36:08] You might, they're they're creating evaporation as part of the photo photosynthesis. Yeah. But, um, turns out they're doing more than that. They're, they're reflecting the, the UVB.

[00:36:19] Karinda: And I would say they're probably better evaporative cooling systems than most actual evaporative cooling systems.

[00:36:24] 'cause if you've ever walked into a house with evaporative cooling, it's, it's not, the owners complain about it. Every, anyone entering the house complains about it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No one likes it. No. But a tree, the shade of a tree is so comforting and

[00:36:41] Julie: calming and it keeps you those chemicals.

[00:36:44] Karinda: Yeah. The terpenes calm you down.

[00:36:46] Julie: Yeah.

[00:36:47] Karinda: I feel inclined to read a paragraph on, uh, a blog that our very own Julie Forrester wrote about this, um, which touches on, I guess a different, a different [00:37:00] kind of Vitamin D. So we've spoken about 25. Oh D three as being fat soluble, um, and used as the main marker that is found in our blood and reflects a, a kind of storage, you know, that's very so to speak.

[00:37:15] But I wanna talk about a different one, 'cause vitamin D three supplements are in the fat soluble form, right? Yeah. So this, I wanna, I wanna reiterate to emphasize why supplementation does not equate to what you would get from the sunshine and why sunshine is superior. So Julie writes, "another process occurring during exposure to sunshine is the production of vitamin D three sulfate and cholesterol sulfate molecules, both found in the bloodstream and other parts of the body.

[00:37:47] It is thought that cholesterol sulfate, which is not yet fully understood, may contribute to the blood flow. By creating a negative charge around the exterior of the red blood cells preventing cells from sticking together and [00:38:00] rupturing, it's been hypothesized that deficiency of cholesterol sulfate may contribute to the buildup of fats, cholesterol, and other substances and the development of atherosclerosis."

[00:38:11] " It's difficult to achieve sufficient levels of vitamin D and sulfates from food alone. So healthy exposure to the sun may be important to maintaining these vital nutrients."

[00:38:20] And our friend of the show, our beloved Carrie B Wellness, Carrie Bennett. Also spoke to this on some recent YouTube videos. The importance of that process of sulfation that vitamin D three sulfate is a water-soluble form. It needs to be in that form to actually be able to get to our cells and, and have an influence on various receptors and influence our genes in positive ways.

[00:38:48] And the crucial part of that form of vitamin D is that sulfated vitamin D three in the blood is not [00:39:00] dependent on season. Hmm. And I think that when I heard her talk about that, that really sparked something in me, especially when folks can get really passionate about seasonal affective disorder and that it all comes down to vitamin D.

[00:39:20] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, your storage form will shift seasonally. The, the D three that's measured in your blood that we can't, that we're able to measure will shift seasonally. But this water soluble form of vitamin D that occurs as a result of sunlight hitting the skin with sufficient levels of cholesterol.

[00:39:44] Mm-hmm. Is that fair to say cholesterol's needed for that process?

[00:39:47] Julie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You can't have cholesterol sulfate if you don't have the cholesterol.

[00:39:51] Karinda: Another reason why cholesterol is not just the devil. Yes. And that it's not just this thing that we need a lower, lower, lower.

[00:39:58] Julie: No. We need [00:40:00] it for making all of our steroid hormones.

[00:40:03] Karinda: Yep,

[00:40:04] Julie: yep.

[00:40:06] Karinda: So this sulfated form of D stays consistent even in winter, even as our distance from the sun changes and shifts. Um,

[00:40:16] Julie: how could that be karinda? No, I don't have the answer to that. Oh, duh. No, I think, I think you do. No, I don't think I do. Tell me melatonin.

[00:40:28] Huh? Oh, now I'm, now I'm wondering if that's

[00:40:32] Karinda: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Don't, no, don't doubt. Because no, no, no links. These links in my brain are loose at the best of times because I'm still learning. And actually I'm gonna include this part in side note. This is not what we are taught at university.

[00:40:49] Julie: No,

[00:40:50] Karinda: no, it's not this, this degree of knowledge and how we apply it to our clinic, it's based on emerging research and is, thankfully [00:41:00] we found, we find experts and mentors who are usually,

[00:41:05] international who are usually not based in Australia, who are just more at the forefront of this cutting edge research and, you know, changing up how supplements are used and making, you know, these radical radically different recommendations. And thank God we have these people because this is not what we're taught at uni.

[00:41:25] In, in uni, you were lucky if you got a supervisor or someone who was on the cutting edge themselves and learning this stuff themselves, who was able to say things like, you know, just drop casual bombs in class. Like, "you know, vitamin D, it's, it's more like a hormone than it is a vitamin. It's, it's really a bit silly that we class it as a vitamin.

[00:41:48] It acts more like a hormone and that, and that's how important it is." That's like, that's the most, we got all the textbook reading, all the, um, approved class content just [00:42:00] came back to the fact that vitamin D. Is a fat soluble vitamin and it's important 'cause it's in vi a vitamin. Okay. And that's my little side rant there.

[00:42:09] Now Julie's gonna tell us why melatonin is key in keeping this sulfated vitamin D consistent in our blood.

[00:42:18] Julie: I don't know the precise answer. All I know is that well for a start, the design of the human body and all its incredibly complex processes is, is elegant to say the least. Mm-hmm. To think that it would evolve of a in, in places in the world where there is very little sunlight at certain times of the year and then go, oh well you just can't make vitamin D, you might die.

[00:42:55] Bye bye. Yeah. You know, it's like the whole [00:43:00] menstruating women and iron scenario. Anyway, I was thinking that Yeah, we are just not gonna get over that. I know, I know. Well, in other words,

[00:43:09] Karinda: our, in other words, our body is wise. Our body doesn't do things for no reason. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[00:43:16] Julie: So in those countries where there is more darkness mm-hmm. During certain times of the year and less sunlight, me intracellular melatonin, not pineal melatonin, mm-hmm. Performs many of the same roles as vitamin D does. And in fact it's, it's found to bond to the same receptors as vitamin D. Oh, you go see that.

[00:43:46] So it's a, it's an analog of, of vitamin D.

[00:43:50] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:51] Julie: Um, we know that melatonin is a really potent anti-inflammatory

[00:43:56] Karinda: mm-hmm.

[00:43:57] Julie: And antioxidant.

[00:43:58] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:59] Julie: When it [00:44:00] comes to the sulfated version, the, I'm, I, I can't think of the, the, the link precisely.

[00:44:08] Karinda: Mm.

[00:44:09] Julie: Except that I know that the intracellular melatonin bonds to the same receptors and takes the place of vitamin D and it's thought that they are two hands of the same action.

[00:44:23] Yeah,

[00:44:24] Karinda: and that's a good point too. So side note, what I'll say there, if anyone wants to like come after us for not having these definitive answers, step, step off because we are interpreting, we are interpreting like, emerging. Emerging, emerging, fresh, fresh, fresh research that is still under academic interpretation, so, oh, yeah.

[00:44:46] Yeah. So, you know, we are hypothesizing, we're exploring this stuff isn't, we haven't been studying this for 10 years because this information hasn't been available for 10 years anyway. Yeah. Um, yeah. But yeah, Julie makes an incredible point and [00:45:00] something that actually came onto my radar relatively early in my vitamin D supplementation journey, because somewhere down the line, one of these biohacking wizards from North America on Instagram, like Dr.

[00:45:15] Huberman or something, probably in 2017 or something, I learned from them that you don't really want to take vitamin D after midday because of its potential interference with melatonin because of its potential contrasting, uh, effect compared to melatonin. So that w that's been in my brain for years, but it didn't occur to me that vitamin D is reflective and responsive to sunlight and melatonin is responsive to darkness and we consider melatonin a hormone.

[00:45:52] Yeah. And so much more than that. But vitamin D has always just been a vitamin, and I think that's a great way to [00:46:00] just get us to start thinking slightly differently about it. Like, hang on. Vitamin D and sunlight, melatonin and darkness. Yeah. Or they work together, they work on the same receptors.

[00:46:10] Interesting.

[00:46:11] Julie: Just just to define melatonin, so we've got the pineal melatonin, which is in response to darkness. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's essentially the same molecule, it's just where it's located that defines the two. Mm-hmm. And then the intracellular melatonin is actually made in response to, some frequency or, or infrared frequencies.

[00:46:33] Right. Or red, red frequencies of, of the, the spectrum. Yep.

[00:46:38] Karinda: And again, emphasizing the importance of sunlight and darkness exposure along the whole day. Mm-hmm. And, and into the night because there are different mo molecules that will be responsive to different amounts of darkness. There will be genes that will be more active at certain times based on your exposure to darkness [00:47:00] or what your exposure to daytime sunlight was at different points in the day.

[00:47:04] I think that's also a good opportunity to remember that it's not just the same frequencies of light throughout the day. No, there's more blue in the morning. It's constantly changing change based on the angle and Yeah. If, yeah, and I wish I was better at physics 'cause I'd probably be able to explain that so much better.

[00:47:25] But that's what you need to know throughout, at different times of the day, different frequencies are available and our body is designed, I want to say, to respond in a, uh, in accordance with those varying frequencies.

[00:47:40] Julie: Absolutely. We've got clock genes. Yes. Oh yes. We have little clock genes. I'm still blown away by the fact that we have in the supra chiasmatic nucleus.

[00:47:52] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:53] Julie: We have a, a, a little device that oscillates at the [00:48:00] frequency of the light that's coming in and then transmits that frequency all the way through the body. Uh, it's just beautiful.

[00:48:13] Karinda: It's. It is getting increasingly more difficult to

[00:48:23] succumb to the reductionist way of viewing the body. When Julie reminds us that there is a thing in our brain, oscillating in response to a frequency of light, transmitting that frequency throughout our body that sets off a cellular cascade of molecules that help us manage inflammation and tell our genes what to do at certain times and up upregulate this or organ release more of that hormone at this time.

[00:48:58] Like I can, [00:49:00] like, how do you not believe in magic? How do you not believe in the power of light and sound and vibration? And they, they're all vibrations, but like, yeah. How can you not believe in subtle energetic medicine when our beings are so sensitive and subtle?

[00:49:21] Julie: Yeah. Like, yeah. And, and, and equally, how can you say to me, I only need two hours sleep a night?

[00:49:31] Or is anyone saying that shit? No. Well, I ha I have no, well, maybe not two hours, but, you know, I ha I have had people in the past

[00:49:39] Karinda: Mm,

[00:49:40] Julie: pre naturopathy that have said to me, "oh, I, I only need to only need five hours sleep a night. I'm fine. I'm, I'm fine. I'm fine." Yeah. Yeah. Why wired? Like, yeah. Yeah. Twitching.

[00:49:53] Yeah. You just can't, you can't say that, you know, or, or equally [00:50:00] you, you can't, you can't take the human out of the environment.

[00:50:06] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:06] Julie: And put it in a little box mm-hmm. With windows. Fair enough. Mm-hmm. And then say you've evolved for millions of years outside mm-hmm. Walking, finding your own food, being out in the elements.

[00:50:25] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:26] Julie: And now you're in this little box. It's all the same. It's not, it's not the same. No, not the same. To be living

[00:50:35] Karinda: indoors, live in this box and be in perfect health. Yeah. Oh, and side note, beat yourself up when you're not in perfect health and pull your hair out, driving yourself crazy. Wondering why you're not in perfect health.

[00:50:46] Julie: Yeah. And, and go and buy supplements Yeah. To fix it.

[00:50:51] Karinda: Yeah. And yeah. Oh gosh.

[00:50:54] I love how we can use supplements as naturopaths. Oh, absolutely. And, and, you know, and we'd be [00:51:00] lost without them. We would be lost without them. And I get, I get, um, I feel conflicted when I see any kind of media or ads on Instagram that are saying, stop wasting your money on supplements in favor of, I don't know, this one product, or, you know, this one thing.

[00:51:18] And I think it's important to remember that it's like, it all has to be within context. It's, it's better if you have a qualified practitioner helping you discern what is actually gonna be valuable to you and your body, what you actually need. But, but moreover, like, yes, they're important tools, but it's, it's just important to remember that we've got these foundational things like sleep, like light exposure, like darkness exposure, like smelling fresh air and spending more time in nature that has this.

[00:51:51] Enormous effect on our, so, so, yeah, I feel torn because there's these incredibly simple [00:52:00] free strategies and then there's this fabulous, sometimes expensive supplementation, and it all has its place. Right. But I just want, I, I, oh yeah. We need to be able to hold, hold space for both and, and remember the relevance and importance of both.

[00:52:13] Yeah. But for anyone who thinks naturopathy must involve expensive supplementation, and therefore that makes it less accessible, and must remind you that at the forefront we are, we are nature doctors, I want to say. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Our, our job is to help you come back to your inner nature and connect more with outer nature for the sake of healing and supporting homeostasis.

[00:52:44] Julie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that may be in the form of a herb that's in a capsule. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's still classified as a supplement.

[00:52:53] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:52:55] Julie: So there's just, there's just so much nuance to it. And here we are. Yeah. [00:53:00] And this is why we exist.

[00:53:02] Vitamin Ds anti-cancer benefits. Mm. Okay. Which, which is more beneficial again when it's made naturally in the skin.

[00:53:11] Right. Which is, you know, I mean, you think, we think about, we've been out of the sun now for how, how long has the slip slop slap message been around 30, 40 years?

[00:53:24] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:53:25] Julie: Would, we would've expected that with that and mass supplementation of vitamin D mm-hmm. That we would be, we would have less of these conditions

[00:53:38] Karinda: mm-hmm.

[00:53:39] Julie: That probably don't, that are, that are associated with low vitamin D

[00:53:43] Karinda: mm-hmm. And

[00:53:43] Julie: that we would have less cancers. Mm-hmm. And skin cancers. Mm-hmm. But that's not the case, is it? Mm-hmm. It hasn't gone down at all. No. Isn't that interesting? That is so interesting.

[00:53:57] Karinda: Hmm. Makes you think, doesn't [00:54:00] it?

[00:54:02] Julie: I'm going to just give an a lovely summary of what Vitamin D does in the body. Okay. Or vitamin Ds, let's say. Okay, we'll call, we'll say Vitamin Ds.

[00:54:16] Regulate bone building by balancing phosphate and calcium. And direct actions on the bones helps DNA to express 100 to 1,250 different genes. Maintains nervous system function, inhibits cancer cell proliferation, angiogenesis, so the, the growth of new blood vessels to say a tumor or something. Mm-hmm. And, and metastasis, whether they, they break off.

[00:54:46] So it inhibits all, all three of those processes of cancer supports and regulates immune system function, supports cardiovascular system health, improves insulin [00:55:00] production, reception and transport. So. I wonder if that's got something, you know, taking people out of the sun has got something to do with, um, insulin resistance and therefore obesity.

[00:55:13] Mm-hmm. Modulates beta cell production in the pancreas protects nervous system and the brain and supports muscle development. And then there's a great long list of thing diseases that are, associated with low vitamin D status.

[00:55:30] Rickets, autoimmune conditions. All autoimmune conditions. Oh, mm-hmm. Cancers, diabetes and metabolic disruption. Susceptibility to infections, particularly upper respiratory infections, dementia and cognitive degeneration, heart and cardiovascular disease, and more severe symptoms and comp complications in COVID-19.

[00:55:55] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:55] Julie: Yeah. And then I go on to rant about another of my favorite rants, which is [00:56:00] about, uh, only wild court salmon, not farm salmon,

[00:56:05] Karinda: as a source of Vitamin D. Would you still, would you still maintain that, uh, like yes, I know wild caught salmon, but like, would you still maintain Oh, getting vitamin D from food?

[00:56:19] Julie: I think there are other beneficial things in those foods. Omega, omega threes, I mean, you can turn your mushrooms upside down and get some vitamin D from that, but it, it's a very small amount. It's a fun exercise to do, but it's a very small amount. Get your own sunshine, take your mushrooms out and hold them.

[00:56:41] Hold them in the sun. That's the best way to do it.

[00:56:47] Karinda: Brilliant. Now that, that's a hot take of a recommendation. Yeah. I don't think many people would hear that recommendation anywhere else but the nuanced naturopaths.

[00:56:57] Julie: Yeah.

[00:56:58] Karinda: With the lists that [00:57:00] you read out, particularly for tho the functions of, of. The vitamin Ds, shall we say.

[00:57:05] Mm-hmm., I think that is evidence in and of itself of vitamin D as more of a hormone than a vitamin, especially with its role to play in with the pancreas and, and insulin function. And, yeah, just how many genes it can affect. Like does, is there any other vitamin that can alter DNA or you know Yeah.

[00:57:34] Interact with DNA to that extent?

[00:57:38] Julie: I don't think, I don't think so. I don't think so. No, I don't think so. Well, because, because a hormone is a, a signaling molecule. Yep. And vitamins are co-factors. Yes. Gen generally

[00:57:52] Karinda: true. Whereas this, that's a great point. And vitamin D. The, where the receptors are found [00:58:00] is beyond where other vitamin or mineral receptors are found, or, or, or, or, no, not even receptors, but where the, um, wherever the enzymes that rely on a certain vitamin and mineral are, are taking place.

[00:58:14] You know, it's not just a different molecule needing some vitamin D to work. Mm. It, it, it's like this direct cellular effect. Mm. Maybe that's, I wonder if that's, I mean, again, we're hypothesizing we're a little bit, um, rogue here, but is that enough to help, like, define it as a hormone that it has a direct impact

[00:58:37] Julie: on,

[00:58:37] Karinda: yeah.

[00:58:37] On, on the cell, on on cells rather than influencing, you know, liver, liver enzyme pathways or. Does, or, or being fed on by our intestinal micro mi uh, microbiota and that, you know, conferring benefits in that way. Like, and which, which

[00:58:58] Julie: one are we talking? Look, I, I [00:59:00] think, I mean, vitamin, the word itself was taken from, was it vital?

[00:59:07] Amine, I think. Ooh, vital molecule. Ooh. But that, but that was very, very early days before they really understood that there, you know, that there were so many of them.

[00:59:20] Karinda: Yeah. Right. Um, and

[00:59:21] Julie: one and one day we are gonna have a little chat about bergurt thine, which is another, maybe it's a vitamin that's been ignored.

[00:59:30] Karinda: Oh. Twists. Keeping us on our toes. Um, vi the word vitamin is derived from the Latin word vita, meaning life Min is a suffix added to indicator substance that is essential for life. Oh, there you go. Yeah. The term vitamin was first proposed in 1912. Oh. So yeah. So what were they calling D three back in the 16 hundreds when they were learning all that stuff?

[00:59:56] Like how were they, they just knew it was a thing in the body, but [01:00:00] it didn't have like a classification.

[01:00:02] Julie: Well, they hadn't, they hadn't identified what the molecule was. Right. They just knew there was an association. Okay. And therefore there was probably a molecule. Maybe that's what they were call, maybe they were calling it a chemical.

[01:00:18] I don't know. Maybe they called it something else back then. Interest.

[01:00:21] Karinda: Um, your vital amine reference is coming up. Here we go. Oh, is it? Okay. So it was proposed in 1912 by Polish biochemist, Kamir Funk. Funk was studying. Beri beri a disease caused by a deficiency of thiamine. Again, a classic deficiency disease helps save the day and helps further science.

[01:00:42] He isolated a substance from rice brand that could cure Berry Berry and proposed that it was a vital amine vi plus amine. Mm-hmm. However, it was later discovered that not all vitamins are amines. In 1920, Jack Cecil Drummond proposed the term vitamin. [01:01:00] To include both amine and non amine nutrients.

[01:01:03] Okay. So they, they were like, okay, great start, and then they altered it a bit. Okay.

[01:01:06] Julie: Yeah. And then I think it was Captain Cook that discovered that, um, that all of his sailors got really sick on the, on the journey to, I think it was actually to New Zealand. And they ended up getting off the ship and ate.

[01:01:22] They were eating just grass. Um, and because they, they had very little food there. They'd run outta food and they all got Well, yeah.

[01:01:32] Karinda: Yeah.

[01:01:33] Julie: And that was part of the way that they discovered vitamin C. 'cause then they realized there was something in plants.

[01:01:41] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[01:01:42] Julie: And then they took barrels of limes with them on ships.

[01:01:46] That'll do it.

[01:01:47] Karinda: Mm. That'll help prevent scurvy hay. Yeah.

[01:01:52] Now, if you would like more easy to do, it feels like easier to digest information, in a [01:02:00] readable format, in a more structured format, please find in the show notes the link to Julie's blog post that she wrote up called "Taking Vitamin D versus making Vitamin D."

[01:02:12] We can also use that in the title of this episode. Fantastic. We could do that.

[01:02:17] Closing thoughts, closing statements,

[01:02:19] Julie: is that it? That's it. I mean, it's part of our ongoing discussion about the nuance of things. You know, it's not black and white. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:31] There's not a simple answer.

[01:02:33] Karinda: Yep.

[01:02:34] Julie: Vitamin D isn't just one thing. Mm-hmm. And it turns out we do need to be outside being animals in the way that we evolve to be. Surprise, surprise, surprise.

[01:02:50] Karinda: And if you find yourself now looking at your bottle of vitamin D three capsules or spray, and you are like, [01:03:00] Hmm, should I be taking this?

[01:03:02] And then you start to look at other supplements and you're like, hmm. Is this the best supplements I could be on? Are these relevant to me? Feel free to book in a supplement and medications review session with our very own, Julie. Uh, thank you. Because it's so easy to self prescribe these days.

[01:03:19] It's so easy to get recommended things by retail assistance or pharmacists or, health food store assistance. Uh, that Or online. Or online, yes. Oh my God. Yeah. Podcasts, our podcast, no, hopefully not. Our podcast don't go self self prescribing anything other than sunlight and mouth taping from, from our podcast.

[01:03:42] Um, but yeah, you know, there, there's a lot of information to sift through and unpack, and it's. Easy to convince people they need to be on a certain thing, or it's easy to like really hype up a specific supplement or, or worse, like a, a specifically marketed product. Um, so [01:04:00] yeah, let, let Julie help you sort of decode what will be most relevant for you based on your case history, based on what your body is telling us.

[01:04:07] Yeah, I think that's a great kind of consult.

[01:04:11] Julie: Thanks. I think, I think it's a great thing to see people saving money on things they don't need or, you know, sometimes I see people taking duplicates of the same thing at the same whatever it is, vitamin, mineral, or herb. And then there's something really important that they're not taking Yeah.

[01:04:34] That they, that they specifically need.

[01:04:38] Karinda: Yes.

[01:04:38] Julie: Yeah. And, and yeah, it's, I think we probably all see that as naturopaths.

[01:04:44] Karinda: Yeah,

[01:04:44] Julie: definitely. Yeah. If you are having trouble with your menstrual cycles, if you are wondering should I be on the pill or is there a better way?

[01:04:57] Mm-hmm. Can something be done [01:05:00] about these annoying menstrual cramps that I'm having? Do if, do you have PCOS? Do you have a PCOS diagnosis and you are not convinced that that's correct? Are you low in iron? Then go and see Karinda because she will work, she'll, she'll work it all out for you.

[01:05:28] She'll and I mean, she'll

[01:05:29] Karinda: sort you out. Talk about a medication that is known to cause multiple vitamin and mineral deficiencies. Like that's, you know, that's how I'll make it relevant to this conversation. The pill, you know, vitamin and mineral supplementation isn't always warranted, but oof being on the pill for years, generally I'm putting those patients on some kind of b complex at the least, or a multi mineral formula at the most 'cause and oftentimes there's so many symptoms we can [01:06:00] correct just by repleting that deficiency.

[01:06:03] Yeah. So yeah, please, please do feel, thank you for the shout out Julian. Please do feel welcome. That's right to hit me up. Um, Julie and I both offer, free cost and obligation free connection calls where you chat to us for about 15 minutes and just explore what's going on for you and how we could possibly help

[01:06:23] in your health journey, health and healing journey, what naturopathy could do for you, what that path forward would look like for you. And you can also suss us out and see if we are a kind of practitioner that you would like to have on your health team. Absolutely. Um,

[01:06:38] Julie: and also if you, if you've got gut health problems and menstrual problems mm-hmm.

[01:06:45] We, we do work together

[01:06:47] Karinda: Yes. With people. We love taking cases together and sharing cases. So yeah, if you feel like you'd like two naturopaths on your health team, we are very open to that. There is a link in the show notes to, [01:07:00] message us both. And there's also our respective links if you wanna book a session with either Julie or myself.

[01:07:05] Always feel welcome to message us on Instagram as well. Comment on our episodes on YouTube or Spotify. If you like what you heard, if any of this information we shared today was at all helpful or interesting, please consider subscribing on YouTube, following us on Spotify, subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

[01:07:24] Leave us a like, leave us a five star rating if you feel so inclined. It really helps us share this information further and wider. Um, and especially when we are like really dissecting current Yeah, live, coming out research. I would love for more people to have access to this information.

[01:07:46] Julie: And just as just a, a final, a final shout out.

[01:07:52] The reason why it's important for other people to be able to find us was displayed the other day when I received a [01:08:00] message from one of our lovely listeners who reached out to say mm-hmm. That she had listened to our episode, about hormonal contraceptives and meningiomas.

[01:08:12] Mm-hmm. I, I, it brings a tear to my eye, but I will try not to get emotional. Um, she said that, uh, she's 57 and is now three weeks post meningioma surgery. She's doing extremely well and feels blessed that she's on this side of the healing process.

[01:08:33] Karinda: Mm.

[01:08:34] Julie: But, um, she hadn. Been made aware of the, the link between, hormonal contraceptives and meningiomas and just wanted to know a bit more information and to be able to give people that sort of information I am getting emotional is, is really special.

[01:08:57] Karinda: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and to be able to give it in such [01:09:00] a accessible way, and this could just reach so many, so many people like far and wide, you know, beyond our local circles, beyond our patient circles and yeah. We are so chuffed and grateful to receive any kind of message like that, um, even if you've just got the tiniest thing from one of our episodes or learn something or

[01:09:25] started to question something based on anything we were saying. We really do love to hear it. Please feel free to reach out to Julie or myself or Yeah, use the contact form we link to, to message both of us. And thank you so much for the messages that we do get. 'cause yeah, it really warms our hearts and makes our days and, and, and gives us a really, I mean, we are motivated to record episodes at all, but getting the feedback from you guys is, is a incredible extrinsic motivator to, to keep doing what we're doing and certainly to keep sharing information in this format, and to [01:10:00] be more frequent and consistent with it.

[01:10:03] All messages of support and, thanks are, are so, so welcome and we thank you so much for, for choosing us, for choosing us As you are listening or watching material. What a, what an honor. What an, an honor in a world where there is so much content, so much content on the internet, as you could be watching anything else, you could be listening to anything else and you've chosen us and thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

[01:10:30] Thank you for tuning into another episode.

[01:10:32] Julie: Yeah, thanks.

[01:10:34] Karinda: Thanks. See ya. Bye.