TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] Karinda: We are good to go.

[00:00:01] Julie: We are good to go

[00:00:03] Karinda: Shit, we haven't done this in a while

[00:00:04] Julie: Shadows on my face

[00:00:09] Karinda: Oh, let's change that

[00:00:15] Julie: Okay.

[00:00:16] Karinda: Yeah, that's good

[00:00:17] Hi

[00:00:21] Julie: Hi. We're back

[00:00:24] Karinda: We're back. Where did we go? Ooh.

[00:00:28] Julie: We went to Queensland

[00:00:29] Karinda: We did go to Queensland, and that was very exciting. And as, like, welcome to everyone who's clicked or tapped on this episode today. Thank you for being here. But maybe a, maybe a more, w- a warmer welcome, a more special welcome to all the incredible people that we met in Queensland at the Naturopaths and Herbalists Association of Australia Herbal Medicine Summit, um, on the Sunshine Coast.

[00:00:57] We were... Yeah, and, [00:01:00] like, let's just debrief this a bit, I reckon. We were delighted at how well our presentation was received. So we spoke about circadian rhythm, you know, circadian signaling for whole body health. We threw a whole bunch of information at that room, and people just received it with such, like, gratitude and curiosity and had stories to share with us and had follow-up questions to ask us.

[00:01:28] And it was, it was a real treat to present that and to get all the conversations that we got to have with naturopaths, student naturopaths, um, mentors of ours

[00:01:39] Julie: yeah. People that, um, that we've only been watching from afar,

[00:01:45] Karinda: Yeah

[00:01:46] Julie: fangirling

[00:01:52] Karinda: Yeah, that was, yeah, there'll, there'll be some specific moments that, that go down in history. 'Cause it, it's so, you know, you follow someone online for, gosh, a decade, over a decade, [00:02:00] and then you, and then you're on stage with a huge screen behind you, and microphones and professional recording equipment, and these, these people you've been following are in the audience, like really listening to what you have to say.

[00:02:13] It's like, oh, shivers. What?

[00:02:16] Julie: some, some of them were lecturers

[00:02:18] Karinda: Yeah, yeah, people that lectured us at uni. Um,

[00:02:22] Julie: Shout out to Bec.

[00:02:24] Karinda: oh sh- oh, shout out to Rebecca Edwards. And if you, if you haven't listened to those episodes already, I'll, I'll link them, um, in the descriptions below. We've done a couple of episodes with Bec. Um, she works with activated, uh, pro- probiotics, Biome Australia.

[00:02:40] Sh- uh, she's such a treat, and the way she can explain these really complex subjects and make them so simple and digestible, especially in the realm of complex gut microbiome stuff, complex immunity stuff, obviously pr- the world of probiotics and prebiotics and postbiotics. Oh, it's, [00:03:00] it's such a treat to, to receive her education, and she was like our mama bear, like our naturopath mama bear, just like...

[00:03:09] 'Cause she taught... We, uh, Julie and I didn't study at the same time, but, uh, she taught, she lectured the both of us. Um, and so she was just like, "Oh, these people I taught at uni, and look at them, like, doing this thing on this stage." So, yeah, that, that was so... Bec, if you're listening, thank you so much. That was...

[00:03:27] Your, your support, honestly, your support on that weekend, like, j- was like, meant the world to us. It, it really made a, a huge difference. I was... I, I shared a bit on Instagram, but, um, we'll, we'll let the folks know that, um, yeah, I was not keen. I was not keen. I was probably up until f- three weeks beforehand, I was like, "How can I not do this?

[00:03:54] How can I get out of this? How did Julie drag me into this?" [00:04:00] How, you know? So just all, all, like, fear stuff that I was rationalizing with. "No, I don't know enough to talk about this subject. I don't... Like, who am I to yap on about this?" Or, you know. Um, and I am just... And I was gonna be menstruating, and I ended up starting my, my bleed at the, the tail end, which was, which was a, it, it was a lot in, just in terms of more so the social interaction.

[00:04:25] The presentation itself was,

[00:04:27] Julie: Hmm

[00:04:28] Karinda: relatively breezy for the late premenstrual phase. But, um, uh, looking back, I, I wouldn't change it for anything in the world. I am so glad I did that. Julie, I am so grateful to you for dragging me into that, for submitting the application on behalf of both of us, for doing all the things.

[00:04:47] 'Cause this is... And this is, like, the difference between us. Like, Julie can really hold the bigger vision of stuff, whereas I'm often m- more often looking at, like, the practicality, like, what makes sense, what actions do we need to take right, what are our [00:05:00] next steps right now, you know? Editing the podcast, writing the show notes, like, stuff like, I'm just like, okay.

[00:05:05] And, and, you know, doing our masterclass, which I'm sure we'll talk to you more about. It's like, okay, let me set up the back end of that and, you know. But Julie, Julie's-

[00:05:14] Julie: Julie's like, "Hey, that looks good. I'm gonna-

[00:05:18] Karinda: Yeah. Ooh, and that, and that.

[00:05:20] Julie: But she'll love it

[00:05:21] Karinda: You'll love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, and what's interesting is that you're right, I will love it, but in the moment, in every moment before it happens, I, I'm battling with myself and telling myself that I won't love it. But I will, and I did.

[00:05:39] Julie: I'm so glad that was the outcome.

[00:05:41] Karinda: Me too. Yeah, could have been a ve-

[00:05:43] Julie: Because it was... I mean, it was a, it was a big investment, in, in energy,

[00:05:49] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:49] Julie: however you look at it.

[00:05:51] Karinda: Yeah

[00:05:51] Julie: To, to get up there to prepare the talk, um, and, and yeah, talking in front of those, [00:06:00] those who we aspire to be like,

[00:06:04] Karinda: Yeah

[00:06:04] Julie: I think that was my biggest hurdle.

[00:06:07] Karinda: Yeah. And those who we're inspired by who were like, you know, prominent researchers and educators and, and mentors. Yeah, like I- I'm sure it was up until like maybe just 15 or 30 seconds before we got on stage and like we would see someone and Julie would be like, "Such and such is in the room." And I'm like, "Yep, it's okay.

[00:06:26] It's okay. Nothing changes. Nothing changes.

[00:06:28] Julie: Noth- nothing changes.

[00:06:31] Karinda: We've got this. We've got this."

[00:06:32] Julie: yeah.

[00:06:32] Karinda: I don't think there's ever been a weekend in my life where that amount of strangers... And, you know, I've been to four-day festivals where everyone's off their face and everyone talks to everyone.

[00:06:42] I have not had a weekend where that many strangers have like come up to me like they know me because I forgot that I just spoke in front of all of them on a stage, and so of course they know me, to say, "Oh my God, well done. Oh, I loved your presentation. Oh my God, that got me thinking about this. Oh my God, and I just wanted to ask about..."

[00:06:59] You know, [00:07:00] that blew my mind. But so lots, lots of conversation, lots of discussion was had, lots of questions were asked. But one of the things that was asked by some newer graduates that we met was like, "How do you like get to this point where you're, you're talking at the summit of like, you know, the NHAA?"

[00:07:19] And, you know, and that's a very, um, well, highly regarded, um, association for naturopaths and herbalists in Australia. So people like see us doing that and they go, "Oh my God, like, how do you get to that level?" And it was like, I think I just wanna like take down that barrier a bit because, w- well, at least for me, the barrier was actually just invisible.

[00:07:40] The opportunity was just waiting there, and Julie just applied. We had not done this degree of speaking before, like at this level, talking to this many people at once. Um, we've done like smaller speaking things at, at libraries with Vic Herbs, um, Julie especially. But [00:08:00] like there was nothing special about us, you know.

[00:08:03] We didn't get chosen because we have this podcast or we're more prominent naturopaths or we're busier naturopaths or we're making more money or we have more skills. Like, I just really wanna like make that clear like, so for the people who are like, "Oh, I would love to do that, but that feels so hard to achieve," you know?

[00:08:22] I just wanna put it out there that like, actually, it's probably a lot easier than you think

[00:08:26] Julie: Yeah. Well, the, the, the NHAA really s- wants to support naturopaths at every level,

[00:08:33] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:33] Julie: know? And they, they're actively looking for... Like, they're setting up the, the special interest groups.

[00:08:40] Karinda: Yeah

[00:08:41] Julie: they're looking at how they can engage naturopaths in, in... of all different types and interests and, um, um, and, and, and levels of, of their practice.

[00:08:55] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:08:57] Julie: reach out to them.

[00:08:58] Karinda: And you know, [00:09:00] often, especially as a student, especially as a new graduate, there's sort of this, this big gap of, like, the spectrum of naturopaths in Australia. Well, there's the new grad- there's the students and the new grads, and then there's, like, the people who've made it and the people who've been doing it for, like, 10, 20, 30 years.

[00:09:20] And it's like there are so many more of us, and it's like, I guess Julie and I would probably be a great representation of, like, all the naturopaths in the middle, like, who've gone through so much y- different, you know, different careers and different pivots and so much learning after you graduate. You know, Tanya Wells, a fabulous lecturer, said it to us in, like, clinical herbal medicine.

[00:09:44] She's like, "You learn a lot here, but you do, like, 80% of the learning, like, once you're out of here and you're in clinic and you're seeing real people." And yeah, she... That's just how it goes. So yeah, if you feel... If you are [00:10:00] a student or a new graduate, like, I just wanna really cement that reminder that, you know, in a not overwhelming wel- way, but, like, you don't have to have it figured all out because there is so much more opportunity for learning to come.

[00:10:13] There i- there is so much growth and maturity that you will experience, um, as a naturopath, and you don't th- you don't have to go from new graduate to expert mentor in, like, a year or two. Like, that's just not, that's just not how it works. And, and we're just a couple of normal gals,

[00:10:32] Julie: Yeah

[00:10:32] Karinda: and, uh, uh, we're lucky that one of us is happy to push for opportunities.

[00:10:40] Julie: Says yes to things and then work out, work out how later.

[00:10:44] Karinda: Yeah exa- yeah, exactly. Yeah. I say, I'm like, "But how?" And Julie's like, "Yeah, we'll figure it out." I'm like, "But, uh, how?" Which, and by the way, guys, you know, if anyone's into manifestation,

[00:10:59] like, y- you [00:11:00] know, Julie has a certain degree of trust without needing to know the how, and that is so powerful because when you get bogged down with the, "No, no, no, I need to know exactly how I will achieve that outcome that I'm desiring to achieve," that, that's where you get lost in the sauce. So

[00:11:19] Julie: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Karinda: it's nice...

[00:11:20] Julie: of it like that.

[00:11:22] Karinda: Oh, yeah.

[00:11:23] Julie: Uh, uh, because, because, you know, this is the way I've always been.

[00:11:27] Karinda: Yeah

[00:11:29] Julie: I think you know that there will be steps

[00:11:32] Karinda: Hmm.

[00:11:34] Julie: that, that lead to the end of any big project,

[00:11:38] Karinda: Yeah

[00:11:39] Julie: and the first step is to say yes,

[00:11:41] Karinda: Yeah

[00:11:43] Julie: and then you just take each one as it comes along. Yeah, I guess I do, I do just have a faith that it's gonna work out. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but s- but, you know, shit doesn't work out sometimes anyway.

[00:11:57] Karinda: Yeah,

[00:11:58] Julie: Despite your best [00:12:00] efforts.

[00:12:00] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Julie: So Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:12:05] Karinda: yeah, no, but I think it's good, it, you know, and well, actually, going off exactly what you said, sometimes shit just doesn't work out, but sometimes it does. I would rather, if some shit isn't gonna work out anyway, I would rather be having that mindset of faith and trust anyway. And it's not like you lose that faith and trust because one thing doesn't work out.

[00:12:25] You're still in the continuum of life. There's still... That's not, like, the end. Like, you can have, you can still choose faith and trust in those challenging times, in those, in what seems like a letdown or a disappointment or an unexpected outcome that you didn't want. But I would always rather have the mindset of, "No, this is okay.

[00:12:46] This is life, and it, it's still going to work out for me and everything's going to be okay," rather than being like, "I knew this would happen because I didn't have 10 steps figured out before I took the first step." You know, it, that's, you would always rather the other [00:13:00] mindset, right? Like,

[00:13:01] Julie: Yeah.

[00:13:02] Karinda: yeah.

[00:13:02] Julie: Yeah

[00:13:03] Karinda: So that's our, that's our little pep talk, I guess.

[00:13:09] Julie: wasn't the intention.

[00:13:10] Karinda: This was not the intention, but um

[00:13:12] Julie: that's what happens with us

[00:13:15] Karinda: At the Nuance Naturopaths, that, that's what you get. You mix our magic together and you, you get a bit of everything. If Julie will allow it, because I have a feeling that Julie's really gonna shine in the second half of this episode, where we get into the nitty-gritty, and we get into some detailed research, and we get into some facts.

[00:13:36] Julie: Yeah

[00:13:37] Karinda: I'm gonna shine when I'm just skimming around the surface, just kind looking at the subject from the outside in. So I'll do, I'll do a little intro. So, a part of,

[00:13:46] Julie: Okay

[00:13:47] Karinda: a big part of our talk that we did was about sunlight. We, in case you haven't heard, we love sunlight,

[00:13:59] Julie: Yeah.[00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Karinda: We were both delighted when, um, well, I think I actually first saw it 'cause when Rachel Arthur shared it in her blog.

[00:14:09] That's, that's where I first saw the article.

[00:14:11] Julie: Ah.

[00:14:11] I think I saw it at my work.

[00:14:17] Karinda: Oh.

[00:14:18] Julie: Yes.

[00:14:19] Karinda: it's doing the rounds then.

[00:14:20] Julie: yeah

[00:14:21] Karinda: S- so the title of this article, this is in, um, Nature. This is a book review in Nature, the, the fabulous, um, would you call it a scientific journal that, that we love. Um, and the title is "The Best Way to Start Your Day? The Science Backs Naked Cartwheels in the Sun."

[00:14:38] And we were both having a laugh, uh, before we started recording because both of us saw the title of the article, shared it with the other, got excited about it, but we learned today that neither of us read the article. We just, um, we, we were just...

[00:14:54] Julie: that checks out.

[00:14:55] Karinda: Yeah, we were just like, "Yep." Took it at face value, went, "Yep, that needs f- no further [00:15:00] explanation.

[00:15:00] Um, we'll take it." And so the book review, the, the book in question, uh, and I love the title, "In Defense of Sunlight: The Surprising Science of Sun Exposure" by, uh, Rowan Jacobson, and that, that was just published this year, 2026. So, and okay, so where a lot of this is coming from, in def- why do we need to defend sunlight?

[00:15:22] Why would there be a defense for sunlight? Since I can remember, it, uh,

[00:15:30] you know, being a Caucasian person in Australia, th- the messaging about sun protection and sunscreen especially, you know, slip, slop, slap campaigns and, um, no hat, no play at school. I don't know if, um, your son, who's the same age as me, had that.

[00:15:49] Julie: yeah. Yep

[00:15:51] Karinda: yeah. Um, you know, the, the, the messaging around sun equals bad is terrifyingly [00:16:00] strong.

[00:16:00] And obviously we are a population of people where... Well, actually, I don't know what the highest, um, what part of the world has the highest incidence of melanoma. But we have a relatively high incidence of skin cancers. Is that fair to say? Yeah. A-

[00:16:14] Julie: I think it's Australia that has the highest.

[00:16:18] Karinda: Yes. I also remember being maybe closer to my teenage years when, um, a woman, my goodness, I can't remember her name, but it m- it made headlines because a woman, uh, I believe, died from what started as a skin cancer. Um, and she regularly used tanning beds, and then it sparked...

[00:16:42] Julie: are not the sun,

[00:16:43] Karinda: Yes. Yes. Absolutely not the sun.

[00:16:47] And you've, as, as, um, oh, what's his name?

[00:16:50] Julie: Jonathan Jarecki?

[00:16:51] Karinda: Jonathan Jurecki, this fabulous, I'm gonna say young lad, and that makes me feel like such an old person. He, he was [00:17:00] responding to something about, you know, UV light causes this damage, UV light does this.

[00:17:04] And he was like, "Can I just say, like, UV light, like sunlight is not UV light. Sunlight is a specific blend of a few different kinds of wavelengths of light, including, that includes UV light. It's not concentrated UV light." Obviously, tanning beds, concentrated,

[00:17:22] Julie: Yeah.

[00:17:23] As also the methods that are used when they're researching the damaging aspects of UV light,

[00:17:33] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:17:33] Julie: They concentrate the light as well.

[00:17:35] Karinda: Yep. Just like in how studies when they're testing the toxicity of a plant or a medicine or a drug, they, they usually do quite high doses comparat- you know, relative to, say, the body weight of the, of, you know, the rodent that they're testing on, unfortunately.

[00:17:54] They go to the high end, so that doesn't surprise me that in, in research about UV damage, they're [00:18:00] doing these really, really high proportions that are not, not representative of what is available to us in natural sunlight.

[00:18:06] Julie: Yeah, in dosage, but also in terms of the, the, um, the refinement of the frequencies.

[00:18:14] Karinda: Yes. Yeah, yeah

[00:18:15] Julie: you know, it's only just a couple of frequencies,

[00:18:19] Karinda: Yep

[00:18:19] Julie: the full spectrum that we, that we get.

[00:18:22] Karinda: Yes

[00:18:23] Julie: of even just the, the UV range.

[00:18:25] Karinda: Yeah, yeah. It's not e- when, when UV is available from sunlight, it's not just this one really concentrated narrow frequency of UV. It's still, it's still, um, dispersed, I guess you could say, might be a word.

[00:18:41] Broad, broad range. Yeah. As not, I'm not a photon physicist. So

[00:18:47] Julie: Aren't you?

[00:18:50] Karinda: I could try that hat on, but, um.

[00:18:53] So this book comes out in response to what you could call an era [00:19:00] since, I think it was the 1970s, where, where people, physicians were starting to be really alarmed by the rising rates of skin cancer. Th- this, this kind of anti-sun campaign that has started since then. Yeah, you

[00:19:17] Julie: I was there.

[00:19:18] Karinda: Were you were there for the '70s

[00:19:18] Julie: because my, my childhood and your childhood were completely opposite in

[00:19:25] Karinda: True

[00:19:26] Julie: exposure. So just to, to give you the other side of the picture.

[00:19:31] Karinda: Yes, please.

[00:19:32] Julie: When I... So I grew up mostly in Sydney,

[00:19:37] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:19:37] Julie: and then we moved down to Melbourne. Um, we lived in a block of flats when I was about, uh, 11 or 12.

[00:19:44] They were just newly built. We had a swimming pool in the backyard, in the downstairs, that, we thought was our own personal swimming pool because the rest of the flats were mostly old people.

[00:19:55] Karinda: Great.

[00:19:57] Julie: We spent our entire [00:20:00] summers at, in that swimming pool, my brother and I would have competitions to see who could get the most

[00:20:08] Karinda: sunburnt

[00:20:09] Julie: so that you could s- you could peel off one continuous layer of skin.

[00:20:14] So the biggest piece of skin peel won the competition. This is how bad things were. So you would get really horribly sunburnt and and it, it was painful, and you'd get heatstroke, and you'd be thinking, "Yeah, I'm

[00:20:34] Karinda: I'm winning something?

[00:20:35] Julie: gonna get a good peel out of this." Right. Um, the message of sun damage was more about the, the burn at the time and less about skin cancers. Um, as I got older, my mother and I would go out and that, like, it was mother-daughter time. We would go out and lay in the yard in our bikinis,

[00:20:58] Karinda: with

[00:20:58] Julie: a book, [00:21:00] maybe a pair of sunglasses or a hat. Um, but that's just really just to, you know, block the glare so that you could read. and we would, we would sunbathe, and we'd get as dark a tan as we possibly could because a dark tan was more attractive. And then as we got into the '70s, the skin cancer, the, the message about damage from the sun started to come through, and there

[00:21:32] Karinda: Hmm

[00:21:32] Julie: and there, there was the, uh, there was still a generation of people ahead of us who were, very, very dark from suntanning, and their skin was like leather, and, you know, like an old leather handbag. I don't know, have you ever seen the movie Something About Mary?

[00:21:52] Karinda: Oh, it was a long time ago, yeah

[00:21:54] Julie: Uh, and there's the old lady that lives next door that just spends all her days in the sunshine, and [00:22:00] she's

[00:22:00] Karinda: Yeah

[00:22:00] Julie: she's just so tanned. It's like, uh... Yeah. Anyway, so that was my childhood. we didn't take that message very seriously when it started because we're like, "Eh, I'm fine.

[00:22:18] I've been in the sun my whole life." And, uh, then you started to, you know, hear about people who had skin cancers and things, and then it started to become real.

[00:22:30] Karinda: Yeah. Yep

[00:22:31] Julie: the, the damage is done.

[00:22:34] Karinda: Yes

[00:22:35] Julie: my generation has the greatest risk skin cancers because we had that burning and that skin damage,

[00:22:44] Karinda: Yeah

[00:22:45] Julie: um, in early life

[00:22:47] Karinda: Yep And I guess that's a, that's maybe one of the first key things that we wanna point out is

[00:22:55] that it is sunburn that can increase the risk of developing skin [00:23:00] cancers, not sun exposure, not sunlight. And so we really need to, yeah, k- sort of flip the script there and, and, and get that more solidly into our sun protection narrative.

[00:23:15] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:16] Karinda: and I almost wanna dive straight into-- I mean, yeah, I guess I've done enough of an intro, and there'll be more things that I draw on from the article, I think.

[00:23:24] But one of the things I really wanna dive into is that rates of skin cancer are still increasing and/or haven't, haven't been quelled despite h- all-time high usage of sunscreen and, like, sunscreen technology improving. Which brings up questions of, okay, so, so what's, what's causing it? What are we missing?

[00:23:51] We're protecting ourselves from the sunlight. We're using these chemical, chemical protectors in the form of sunscreen. Why are people still getting skin cancer?[00:24:00]

[00:24:00] Julie: Okay, so we need to break it down. So first of all,

[00:24:02] Karinda: Yes

[00:24:03] Julie: um, I did just find the data. Australia is the world's melanoma capital.

[00:24:08] Karinda: Hmm.

[00:24:09] Julie: But melanoma is not the only type of skin cancer. Um, melanomas-- and it depends on which data. This is another thing. It depends which data you're looking at.

[00:24:19] Karinda: Yeah

[00:24:20] Julie: melanomas are decreasing somewhat.

[00:24:26] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:24:27] Julie: Other types of skin cancer, I'm not sure. Gonna put a pin in that.

[00:24:32] Karinda: Okay

[00:24:33] Julie: But the rates of melanomas in places that have never seen sunshine, places on the body that have never seen sunshine, are increasing.

[00:24:43] Karinda: Hmm, mm-hmm

[00:24:44] Julie: And all of these skin cancers are treatable.

[00:24:51] Karinda: Mm-hmm. Yep

[00:24:52] Julie: When, when detected, they are treatable. So

[00:24:57] Karinda: Yep

[00:24:58] Julie: the problem can [00:25:00] be people, people dying from melanoma can be that it hasn't been spotted,

[00:25:06] Karinda: Yep

[00:25:07] Julie: And that may be because it's been in a place that isn't seen by sunlight, and

[00:25:11] Karinda: Yep.

[00:25:11] Julie: recognized as a possibility.

[00:25:13] Karinda: Yeah

[00:25:13] Julie: But also vitamin D deficiency

[00:25:16] Karinda: Yep

[00:25:17] Julie: to the increase of skin cancers and skin damage.

[00:25:21] Karinda: Yep

[00:25:22] Julie: Vitamin D deficiency is directly

[00:25:24] Karinda: Related to? Related to.

[00:25:26] Julie: related to

[00:25:27] Karinda: Yep

[00:25:28] Julie: not getting sufficient UVB.

[00:25:30] Karinda: Yep

[00:25:31] Julie: That very narrow band which causes damage, can also produce the, the vitamin D.

[00:25:39] Karinda: Yeah, so it's, it, it is a bit of a double-edged sword, and this is why when we've been on our kind of rampage-like advocacy about this, it, it ... We- we're advocating for strategic sun exposure. Not being outdoors all day, although I'm actually not opposed to that if done responsibly, and that's kind of the life that I [00:26:00] wanna live.

[00:26:00] Um, but being really strategic about it. Now, before I go more into that, I wanna emphasize a point that you made because when Julie mentioned this before we record- we started recording, I was like, "Wow, I feel like that's a great entry point for a lot of people." If it was direct sunlight and UV damage to skin that caused melanomas, it would be the areas of direct sun exposure that would be the most affected.

[00:26:35] Because we know that different kinds of melanomas can appear on parts of the body that don't get exposed to sun, as Julie mentioned, like in between the toes or somewhere really awkward, on the back of your thigh or ot- you know. That tells us that it's not just this direct causal effect, sunlight causes melanoma.

[00:26:56] Julie: Hmm

[00:26:56] Karinda: It tells us that there is more, there is something more [00:27:00] systemic going on in the body, and that perfectly leads into the vitamin D stuff. And, and now let's zoom out there. Well, actually, if you haven't listened to it already, you should definitely check out our "Making Vitamin D versus Taking Vitamin D" episode, where we went into a lot of the science around what vitamin D actually is, how it's a little bit of a, it's a little bit of a letdown that it's even classified as a vitamin because it is so, it is so much more than that.

[00:27:29] When you look at, when you look at all the parts of the body that have vitamin D receptors and you look at the significance of their role in, in, in health on a cellular level, it's, it, it's not just something you're getting from, like, cod liver oil. You know? It's not or, or, you know, from your diet. It's not just a thing you need to get topped up in your diet every now and then.

[00:27:52] It is like, it is fundamental. And I would argue, and there would be evidence [00:28:00] to back me up, that vitamin D plays an ... Vitamin D and all the other metabolites that are produced in response to UVB light hitting your skin and mixing with cholesterol and doing all these fun things. A hun- I would say hundreds of other metabolites maybe, maybe not.

[00:28:22] Lots of other metabolites

[00:28:23] Julie: well, yeah, lots. Yeah, there's at least 50

[00:28:25] Karinda: Yes. Vitamin D is just the thing that we have the best measure of, that has been the most studied, has been the most researched in the human body, and so that's the thing that we link to sun exposure. But there are all these other metabolites, and I would argue that they all play a really regulatory role in managing inflammation, protecting our cells from oxidative stress.

[00:28:49] Uh, and, you know, that could be associated with UV damage. Regulating our immune systems, which would also play a role in, you know, detecting cells that have started to act a bit [00:29:00] abnormal and, you know, managing them, killing them off or recycling them, right? Uh, you know, let's, let's remember that, cancer at a really, really basic level is uncontrolled cell division.

[00:29:10] Cells don't have their off switch that healthy cells have, and so they continue to grow and we get tumors, we get these raised things on our skin, you know? So vitamin D and its friends that we don't, that we just haven't researched yet, plays a really big role in all these physiological functions that could actually help us-- that could help protect our bodies against cancer, that, that, you know, functions that demonstrate anti-tumor activity or tumor regulation activity, you know?

[00:29:40] So we n- we must, we, you know, in terms of public health, we must start looking at, looking at it with this more broad lens. It is not as simple as, "No, don't go out in the sun, you'll get skin cancer." We have to be more strategic and nuanced about it.

[00:29:58] Julie: Yeah. And taking a supplement [00:30:00] doesn't give you that.

[00:30:01] Karinda: Yes, you g-

[00:30:02] Julie: Spoiler alert if you hadn't heard that episode

[00:30:04] Karinda: Yes, vitamin D supplementation is not a substitute for sun exposure.

[00:30:09] Julie: Yeah. There's a number of studies that have looked at various disease states that are associated with low vitamin D status, where they've supplemented

[00:30:19] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:30:20] Julie: or 25OHD, so that final vitamin D product,

[00:30:24] Karinda: Yep

[00:30:25] Julie: and-- or normal vitamin D supplement off your shelf,

[00:30:29] Karinda: Yep.

[00:30:30] Julie: And have not seen any improvement or a significant improvement in those disease states.

[00:30:38] COVID was one of them where they found that.

[00:30:41] Karinda: Yeah. Yep

[00:30:42] Julie: which is interesting. Also, autoimmune diseases

[00:30:47] Karinda: Mm.

[00:30:48] Julie: are very heavily associated with vitamin D

[00:30:49] Karinda: They are, yeah.

[00:30:51] Julie: And they are on the increase

[00:30:54] Karinda: Yeah. Yes, they are. Uh, so, uh, okay, and there's just, you know, again, zoom out. [00:31:00] We- we're not forcing you to think anything, but just consider, you know, in this era since the '70s where sun protection has increased, messaging about the dangers of sunlight exposure have increased. But you can look around, look around.

[00:31:14] Think about anyone that you know, think about your parents, think about your siblings, think about someone in your family or someone that you work with. We can see right in front of us that people are not healthier than they ever have been. They- they're on, you know, no matter what category, I suppose, of health you're looking at, whether it is autoimmune, whether it is mental health, whether it is metabolic, metabolic health.

[00:31:36] Julie: Cardiovascular,

[00:31:38] Karinda: obviously being one of the, the huge ones. It's obvious that certain s- certain, morbidities and causes of mortality are increasing, and we gotta look at it differently.

[00:31:52] Julie: That reminds me of another really important study. There was a, a study done, in Sweden. [00:32:00] I'd actually re- uh, got the details in front of me, but they looked at all-cause mortality and, and sun exposure. So they divided them into groups, low sun exposure, high sun exposure, I think medium sun exposure,

[00:32:14] Karinda: Hmm

[00:32:14] Julie: then, um, looked at them over a, a long period of time found that increased sun exposure is, is associated with a reduction in all-cause morta- mortality.

[00:32:28] Karinda: Yep

[00:32:28] Julie: dying from anything

[00:32:30] Karinda: Yeah

[00:32:31] Julie: is reduced when you have more sun exposure.

[00:32:34] Karinda: Yep

[00:32:35] Julie: And it was a large study too. It's, it, it, a really well put together one,

[00:32:41] Karinda: Yeah, I think I might have, I think I might have referenced that in our presentation actually. Or, or I saw another source that, uh, or maybe it was different 'cause it, they were specifically looking at females.

[00:32:52] Julie: Yeah

[00:32:53] Karinda: and yeah, associated sunlight exposure with life expectancy, um, a positive correlation there.

[00:32:59] [00:33:00] So we know, we can't stick our heads in the sand. Uh, we, we know there, there's evidence to support this now. Something that I really wanna, you know, as part of strategic sunlight stuff, and apologies 'cause we'll probably be going back and forth on a few different points here. The thing that really helped me wrap my head around it, because, you know, I think about, you know, everyone knows it, the harsh Australian sun, "the harsh Australian sun."

[00:33:24] You know? It, it's such a thing around the world. People, it's referenced. It really helped me to think about it from an evolutionary perspective.

[00:33:36] Julie: Hmm

[00:33:38] Karinda: My ancestors and Julie's ancestors are not from this land where we find ourselves on. We are n- we, we are not from this deep southern hemispheric land, right? We are from the Northern Hemisphere.

[00:33:53] I wasn't born... I was born here, but our ancestors are from the Northern Hemisphere. Our ancestors [00:34:00] evolved with a totally different sunlight kind of exposure, with lower,

[00:34:05] lower UVB availability, right?

[00:34:09] Julie: Hmm

[00:34:10] Karinda: That's why our skin color is our skin color.

[00:34:13] Julie: Hmm

[00:34:14] Karinda: M- people with darker skin colors have more pigment or melanin, and that is an evolutionary adaptation to being closer to the equator, getting more stronger sunlight exposure. That... It, it's just, it's evolution. So when our country is made up with a high population of people who have descended from the Northern Hemisphere, the totally different sunlight signature that they've been, that they've ev- that their ancestors evolved with,

[00:34:48] Julie: Hmm

[00:34:48] Karinda: over however many years, and then we come here to a land that we did not evolve on, to a strength and quality of sunlight that we didn't evolve with. [00:35:00] This is where you start to see imbalance. This is where you start to see it's more sunburn, more UV damage because our, concentration of pigment, our concentration of melanin is not adapted to be more protective against stronger UV

[00:35:16] Julie: Hmm. In fact, it's actually the other way round because when you think about it, human species evolved, uh, around what they think in Africa

[00:35:26] Karinda: Hmm

[00:35:27] Julie: with darker skin colors.

[00:35:28] Karinda: Yeah

[00:35:29] Julie: those that moved to the northern hemisphere

[00:35:33] Karinda: mm.

[00:35:34] Julie: lost their abil- their, their melanin production

[00:35:37] Karinda: Yes

[00:35:39] Julie: in order, it's, it's theorized

[00:35:43] Karinda: Mm.

[00:35:45] Julie: have more access production of vitamin D

[00:35:49] Karinda: There you go. That makes perfect sense.

[00:35:51] Julie: Because

[00:35:51] Karinda: so important.

[00:35:51] Julie: so important

[00:35:53] Karinda: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And, and, and the thing we like to say is that our bodies don't do [00:36:00] things for no reason. Our bodies don't adapt in that way of like, oh, okay, "less melanin would enable more UVB availability and exposure on the skin", you know?

[00:36:10] Th- uh, that doesn't happen for no reason. And in ca- some people may not know, it, the general rule of thumb is that the darker your skin tone, the more concentrated your melanin is, the more sun exposure you need to get the same vitamin D response. Is that a fair way to word it?

[00:36:30] Julie: Yeah.

[00:36:31] Karinda: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:32] Julie: yep. S- also,

[00:36:34] Karinda: Yes.

[00:36:34] Julie: favorite thing, eye color.

[00:36:37] Karinda: Oh yeah, I, uh, y- well, you say my favorite thing, but then I, I can't even remember the, the ex- the exact data.

[00:36:42] No, but I can

[00:36:43] Julie: along with the paler skin color,

[00:36:46] Karinda: Yep

[00:36:47] Julie: the loss of melanin production,

[00:36:49] Karinda: Yeah

[00:36:51] Julie: is the, the fact, that, uh, pa- uh, blue eyes and pale skin go together,

[00:36:58] Karinda: Yes

[00:36:59] Julie: allowing [00:37:00] more receptivity, I suppose, of different frequencies of sunlight.

[00:37:06] Karinda: Yes. Yep. Okay. Fun facts. Those with lighter colored eyes are less prone to seasonal affective disorder. If you associate seasonal affective disorder with exposure to sunlight, and maybe more specifically blue light frequencies, maybe. It makes sense that the adap- the adaptation, the genetic adaptation of paler skin, lighter eyes to be more receptive to sunlight.

[00:37:36] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:37] Karinda: Is that making sense? To help mitigate the effects of lack of sunlight. Okay? So if you've got, if you've got blue eyes, it's possible that you're less susceptible to seasonal affective disorder compared to those with darker colored eyes.

[00:37:50] Another interesting fact which kind of supports it, it's kind of like two sides of the same coin with this one, light-colored eyes, so more blue eyes, are more susceptible [00:38:00] to the suppressive impact of blue light at night on melatonin. So it's easier, uh, which, which again makes sense.

[00:38:09] With the less pigment in their iris, there is more, more light frequencies can come through. The more pigment you have in your iris, the more of a block there is to receiving those light frequencies. Just like when you have more melanin on your skin, there's more of a block to those strong light frequencies, hence the need for longer sun exposure.

[00:38:33] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:33] Karinda: So there's my complicated fun fact.

[00:38:35] Julie: That's all right. Sorry, , I dropped you in that.

[00:38:40] Karinda: That's all right. Handled it. Stuck the landing. Oh.

[00:38:43] Julie: phew. What is it they do in gymnastics

[00:38:48] Karinda: Oh, the,

[00:38:48] Julie: when they...

[00:38:51] Karinda: the...

[00:38:55] Julie: The other aspect, uh, protective aspect that we have in [00:39:00] response to sun exposure the release of urocanic acid, which is part of a, a, a separate mechanism from

[00:39:10] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:11] Julie: vitamin D.,

[00:39:12] Karinda: Yes

[00:39:12] Julie: which is directly protective of the skin

[00:39:16] Karinda: Yes

[00:39:17] You may be more prone to UV damage. I- if I'm, if I'm saying a, a, a sensational statement. You may be more prone to UV damage and sunburn if you wear sunglasses. It's really important that your eyes and your skin are receiving the same frequency of light. When you block one, like if you're wearing sunscreen and no, no glasses or the other way around, wearing glasses with no sunscreen, that creates an incongruence.

[00:39:53] And there's... I feel like th- there's negative consequences to that, but it's more so that there are these protective [00:40:00] mechanisms that happen when the message is congruent, when your eyes and your skin are getting the same frequency of light, that are gone when, when you've got a mismatch in the signal. So this urocanic acid thing, so, ugh, it just blew my mind.

[00:40:17] If you specifically, um, UVA, right? Closer to the UVA rise, which, you know, use an app like MyCircadian to see what time that is for you based on your location.

[00:40:29] So when, so going outside in the morning, getting that stronger UVA exposure and making sure that, you know...

[00:40:36] A- again, people with contacts and, and glasses, you know, ask us all the time. It's like, okay, if you, can you get yourself somewhere safe, have your glasses on, da, da, da, da, da. Get yourself somewhere safe. Take your glasses off for a bit. Don't put any SPF-containing makeup on. Set a timer for five to 20 minutes.

[00:40:54] 20 minutes of morning sun before the UVB is available is not, is not gonna do [00:41:00] damage. I think that's fair to say. This process of your eyes and your skin receiving that specific frequency of UVA light, uh, produces this urocanic acid, which interacts with your... And maybe you can fill in some gaps here, or maybe the research actually is incomplete.

[00:41:20] Interacts with your melanin and other proteins in your skin in such a way that makes your skin more protected against damage that could be caused by UV, the stronger, harsher UVB rays later in the day.

[00:41:39] Julie: Yep. Yep.

[00:41:41] Karinda: Ergo, summertime, before you hit the beach, or the pools, or the hike in the afternoon, get some morning sunlight before the UVB starts.

[00:41:52] Get that UVA rise. Get, you know, five to 20 minutes, or 20 minutes if you can. More is better. [00:42:00] I, you know, as my general rule of thumb for UVA, not for all,

[00:42:03] Julie: Mm-hmm

[00:42:04] Karinda: not for all times of day, not for all skin types. And you may be less likely to get sunburn, to get UV damage from strong sun exposure. Like, it's, that blew my mind.

[00:42:15] How's that for evolution? H- how is that for evolution when we lived outside all day, and we may have been, you know, we may have been in harsher climates where sunlight, UVB is stronger, that just by, by being outside, having that exposure to UVA in the morning pr- protects us. Protects us from potential sun damage.

[00:42:35] Julie: Almost like this life-giving force that actually may be responsible for life being on Earth at all

[00:42:48] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:42:51] Julie: Isn't, uh, that, isn't that bad?

[00:42:56] Karinda: Yeah. Turns out, turns [00:43:00] out, this just in.

[00:43:04] and do you know what? On that, like, I took a, I, I took a picture of the sun the other day and it was just... The, the word that came to mind was glorious. And I did, I did share it to Instagram because I am, despite my best efforts, I am still a millennial. A- and I said like, "I don't think I've ever seen a more powerful photograph to represent the healing power of nature."

[00:43:28] Like, look at that. Look at that beaming ray of light. And you know, it's a i- beaming ray of light. It's even in our language when we describe things with such power or vitality. Light is a quality that, that we reflect on and that we note in other people or in the quality of fruits and vegetables or plants that we're looking at, you know?

[00:43:50] Julie: Hmm.

[00:43:50] Karinda: Um-

[00:43:52] Julie: Which all are solar powered, by the way.

[00:43:55] Karinda: Yes. And, and, and that's, and that's kind of another level. But yeah, just [00:44:00] to, like, plant that seed, so to speak, pardon the pun, enjoy the pun, you're welcome. Um, to, to plant that seed, like, yeah, consider that the plants we eat and even the animals we eat, rely on the sun for energy production, right? We can...

[00:44:20] That sunlight, in a sense, that frequency from the sun can be captured in the plants and animals, again, I'm saying that loosely, that we eat, and that's, like, another kind of, like, indirect way that we can receive that vitality. This is where I do get concerned with, um, you know, hydroponic kind of, like, artificially grown stuff because it, it hasn't received that natural sunlight exposure.

[00:44:46] No. No. It's... And I mean, dare I say, I don't know, but maybe this will give people a thread that they can relate to, you know. When it comes to cannabis, [00:45:00] you, you ask any, dare I say, person from your generation,

[00:45:04] Julie: Yes

[00:45:04] Karinda: you ask them about, like, a modern strain of cannabis, and it's like

[00:45:10] Julie: not the same.

[00:45:11] Karinda: it, it, it's like

[00:45:12] Julie: Mm.

[00:45:12] Karinda: unnaturally potent because so many of them are now grown hydroponically, right, under artificial light.

[00:45:20] And cross-breeding. The cross-breeding, yeah

[00:45:23] Julie: it, well it, it's cross-breeding but it's also that they've actively bred traits in plants for, you know, to, to e- emphasize m- more than anything the, the THC

[00:45:38] Karinda: Yes. Yeah.

[00:45:38] Julie: and less of the other cannabinoids.

[00:45:40] Karinda: Yes. So I often do think about that, about plants that are grown indoors or not exposed to natural sun, and I, I reckon a lot of our herbalist friends would, would be able to, uh, relate to that as well, I think. You, you can feel the difference when you eat something grown naturally in the sun versus

[00:45:58] Julie: Mm.

[00:45:58] Karinda: something not.

[00:45:59] [00:46:00] Yeah

[00:46:00] Julie: Yeah, yeah. So just going back to the, the skin damage thing that you were talking about before

[00:46:08] Karinda: Hmm

[00:46:08] Julie: sunlight... Th- probably the most important thing that people can do first up, and this is important in Australia more than anywhere else, is to understand your skin type.

[00:46:24] Karinda: Yes. Y-

[00:46:26] Julie: There are apps, and Karinda will share the link in the show notes

[00:46:32] Karinda: You betcha.

[00:46:32] Julie: Future Karinda.

[00:46:33] Karinda: Yes, she, oh, she does everything.

[00:46:36] Julie: She's so helpful. so use these apps to know. Also, if you're somebody that gets a lot of moles, um, that's another reason to be cautious. But, but y- y- but you're being cautious about getting burnt, and you're being cautious by getting your skin checked.

[00:46:59] Karinda: [00:47:00] Yes. Yep. N-

[00:47:01] Julie: But

[00:47:02] Karinda: not hiding from the sun. Not hiding from the sun. Yeah

[00:47:05] Julie: not hiding from the sun and and being strategic about your sun exposure.

[00:47:10] So all through the year,

[00:47:12] Karinda: Hmm

[00:47:12] Julie: when it's like it is at the moment in Melbourne, cold and a bit overcast, um, get out and allow your skin to get some sunshine on it to

[00:47:24] Karinda: Yes

[00:47:25] Julie: to develop - a solar callus.

[00:47:27] Karinda: Yes

[00:47:28] Julie: Because part of the problem is that we stay indoors for most of the year, and then we go on holidays and get ourselves horribly burnt,

[00:47:37] Karinda: Yes

[00:47:38] Julie: day we go out on a picnic or some event or something

[00:47:42] Karinda: Yeah. When we've been... Yeah, and we've been hiding away from the sun all year. Now, is there anything specific from the notes that you wanted to read out?

[00:47:50] Do you wanna go down any paths specifically?

[00:47:53] Julie: I really like this skin microbiome bit that I know nothing about.

[00:47:58] Karinda: Oh, please tell [00:48:00] us.

[00:48:00] Julie: Yeah. So the skin microbiome also interacts with the sun

[00:48:09] Karinda: Surprise, surprise.

[00:48:11] Julie: Bacteria also act, you know, get benefits from sunlight

[00:48:17] Karinda: Yep

[00:48:18] Julie: have, and have their own circadian rhythm and their own clock genes. But a square centimeter of human skin contains millions of microorganisms.

[00:48:28] Karinda: Yep.

[00:48:29] Julie: We know that.

[00:48:29] Karinda: Yes

[00:48:30] Julie: But a study in 2023 found that chronic sun exposure directly actively selects for more protective microbial community.

[00:48:40] Karinda: Mm-hmm. Is that, I'm wondering, is that the same study, uh, that was again referenced in the, the book In Defense of Sunlight? Um, where he, and he does I think have a whole section where he talks about sunscreen, sun- sun cream, however you know it.

[00:48:58] Julie: Yeah

[00:48:58] Karinda: about the, [00:49:00] the positives, the negatives, where there's still unanswered questions, and they analyze the skin of lifeguards.

[00:49:07] Did you... Yes, yeah, yeah, that's the one.

[00:49:09] Julie: Yeah.

[00:49:09] Karinda: Yep

[00:49:10] Julie: only, only 10 lifeguards,

[00:49:12] Karinda: Okay, small study.

[00:49:13] Julie: S- with skin swabs taken before and after a full summer season of heavily, of heavy sun exposure.

[00:49:20] Karinda: Yep

[00:49:20] Julie: Um, by season's end, their skin was significantly ir- enriched with UV resistant bacteria from two families, the mono... Hang on. sphingomonas, are highly resistant to UV irradiation,

[00:49:36] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:49:36] Julie: and they produce compounds that reduce reactive oxy- oxygen species in human keratinocytes. the other is the erythrobacteriaceae similarly produces protective antioxidative molecules. Some strains produce compounds that selectively kill cancer cells without harming normal [00:50:00] cells

[00:50:00] Karinda: Wow. The, okay, there you go. That is pretty cool. So the, so the microbes, there's more. Keep going. Keep going

[00:50:11] Julie: So the mechanism involves th-the cis-urocanic acid metabolism.

[00:50:16] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:50:17] Julie: this is this mechanism we were talking about before,

[00:50:20] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:50:20] Julie: where the s- where the skin bacteria use an enzyme called urocanase to metabolize this UV-induced compound as long as you're getting a

[00:50:31] Karinda: congruent

[00:50:32] Julie: signal from your eyes and your skin,

[00:50:34] Karinda: Yep

[00:50:35] Julie: To metabolize this UV-inde-induced com-compound, helping the skin calibrate its own immune response to UV rather than simply absorbing damage.

[00:50:45] Karinda: Yep

[00:50:46] Julie: And there is another study, a twenty twenty-five study, added further evidence that the skin microbiome plays an active role in immune regulation in response

[00:50:56] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:50:57] Julie: to UV.

[00:50:58] Karinda: Yep. Love [00:51:00] that

[00:51:01] Julie: how amazing is that?

[00:51:03] Karinda: So cool. And it's recent. And I would also, you know, if I'm thinking more nuanced, if I'm thinking about, you know, specific, some specific people listening, um, that's something to consider in, you know, if you, um, tend to get dermatitis or if you have eczema or if you have psoriasis or, like, any kind of skin condition where there are changes or challenges to the skin microbiome, the, the microorganisms that live on the skin. This, I feel like this is just, uh, you know, there's probably been no research done on the two topics specifically. But this is just another seed to plant, like r- realizing that the microbes on your skin, the bugs on your skin that are there, whether you want them to be or not, are a part of this protective mechanism.

[00:51:51] And so yeah, if, if you know, if you have a condition that is associated with a disrupted skin microbiome, that, that may be an [00:52:00] extra area of consideration, um, if you're looking to take your sun exposure and strategic sun exposure and protection seriously. Yeah.

[00:52:09] Julie: Also keeping in mind that when you pl- apply products to your skin

[00:52:14] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:14] Julie: contain preservatives and any product that has water in it, so any product that is a cream

[00:52:23] Karinda: Hmm.

[00:52:25] Julie: um, is going to have preservatives in there. That's going to impact your skin bacteria

[00:52:31] Karinda: Yep

[00:52:32] Julie: and may, I don't know, we haven't looked at the research, but that may have an impact on these protective um, species

[00:52:43] Karinda: Yes. Yep. I, and I would, I mean, yeah. And we, we see it, don't we? We see it all the time in clinic in terms of the products that people are using on their skin and how it just directly is related to how their skin responds and yeah.

[00:52:58] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:58] Karinda: Fascinating. [00:53:00] And I guess if we're, if we're rounding it out, you know, the thing that got us excited was the title of this book review, The Best Way to Start Your Day: The Science Backs Naked Cartwheels in the Sun.

[00:53:10] And, um, one of the recommendations, 'cause, you know, he, so he did a lot of research on taking vitamin D versus making vitamin D. And there was a skin cancer specialist that, um, advocates for regular short exposures to sunlight. And again, if we're, if we need to choose a rule of thumb, I would tend to agree with that. With as much bare skin as possible. And so the author of the book, uh, "Jacobson, then proposed that 10 minutes of naked cartwheels in the backyard might not be a terrible idea."

[00:53:43] So there you go.

[00:53:45] Julie: Um, my first thought when I heard that was another little fact that

[00:53:53] Karinda: Mm-hmm

[00:53:54] Julie: uh, I don't, I don't know, have we discussed it? [00:54:00] That sunlight on testicles, sunlight directly on testicles can increase testosterone production.

[00:54:09] Karinda: You know, we haven't discussed it, Julie. But, but I'm thinking back to, I'm thinking back to maybe between 2021 and 2023, and I stumbled into the part, I stumbled into the part of the internet of the trend... Oh, wait, I don't know what you're thinking. Uh, anyway, we'll see where it goes. I stumbled into the part of the internet where men were f- were, were getting on their hands and knees, arse to the sun, naked, and sunning their, sunning their anuses and testicles. And this was a- I th- I'm sure it was called sunning. I f- I forget if there was a different nickname for it, but tell me what you were thinking.

[00:54:56] Julie: I think you actually sent me a link to that

[00:54:59] Karinda: Oh, really? Oh, [00:55:00] you're remembering that?

[00:55:00] Julie: 'cause I th- I think, I think we had a bit of a laugh about that. And to be honest, I th- I think, I think I thought it was just one of those crazy

[00:55:11] Karinda: Yeah.

[00:55:11] Julie: fads.

[00:55:13] Karinda: Done by the fringe weirdos

[00:55:16] Julie: the fringe weirdos.

[00:55:18] Karinda: Sometimes they're onto it

[00:55:20] Julie: yeah.

[00:55:21] Karinda: There's,

[00:55:22] Julie: you wanna know the mechanism?

[00:55:23] Karinda: sh- oh my God, always. Well, not always, but right now, yes

[00:55:27] Julie: So a 2021 landmark study in Cell, uh, identified a complete skin-brain-gonad sing- signaling axis activated by UVB. So you've got a

[00:55:40] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:41] Julie: for that short period of time when there's UVB,

[00:55:44] Karinda: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:44] Julie: um, it hits the skin and activates p53 in the epidermal keratinocytes. p53 triggers a hormonal cascade upward to the hypothalamus, then to the pituitary, then to the gonads. The gonads [00:56:00] increase production of sex hormones, testosterone in males, estrogen and progesterone pathways in females.

[00:56:07] Karinda: Oh

[00:56:08] Julie: How do we, how do we expo- what, we have to expose our ovaries?

[00:56:13] Karinda: Well, and, uh, well, look, on that note, I gotta say, uh, and, and the timeline checks out as well. If that study was done in 2021, if there were some headlines going around about that, then yeah, the alternative hippies would've taken that on in an instant.

[00:56:28] So I, and I being somewhat of an alternative hippie, I started doing that. I started doing that in my backyard. I don't have testicles, but I would get... You don't know what you got 'til it's gone. I know. I trust that. But you would be a bit surprised. Yeah.

[00:56:47] Julie: All this talk about menstruation.

[00:56:50] Karinda: If you didn't have them, who would you talk to then? True. Yeah. Oh my gosh, who would I be? Um, and, and actually g- I'm thinking about it. It's something I still do [00:57:00] now es- more so around menstruation or premenstrual, where if I can, if I'm, like, laying in the sun and, say, just wearing a dressing gown, if I can have my genitals exposed in that direct sunlight, and the warmth you feel is quite, is quite significant.

[00:57:21] And just for, like, two to five minutes, and s- like something, it feels like something biochemically changes. Something, yeah, feels, th- yeah. Yeah. And so I guess there's research for it. But, um, I'm, and I'm sure there's a few o- other mechanisms that we don't even know.

[00:57:38] Julie: Yeah. So, so much to cover. We could talk for hours

[00:57:44] Karinda: And speaking of we could talk for hours, and we haven't even covered the other side of all of this. You know, we're talking about these protective mechanisms, these things that have, like, anti-tumor qualities, these things that can get kickstarted in our bodies that protect against UV [00:58:00] damage, improve our immune system's response, um, to irregular cells.

[00:58:04] We haven't even covered melatonin, which is the he- is... When, when vitamin D ain't working during the day, melatonin is putting up a hell of a show at night.

[00:58:16] Julie: Yep

[00:58:17] Karinda: So this is why we decided to, and especially because of how our talk was received, we have, decided to run a live masterclass. Returning to Our Natural Rhythm: How to Use Sunlight and Darkness for Whole Body Health and Healing. And we will cover what's happening at nighttime, 'cause the sunlight is, uh, really only one, one side of the coin. Darkness is the other, the really important side of the coin.

[00:58:44] The other thing that we'll go into more depth on, not only, how the sunlight and how darkness beneficially impacts, like, all the different systems of the body and the s- the, the science that kind of helps- make understanding everything else easier, but the [00:59:00] science of light, the science of, like, the spectrum of sunlight, right?

[00:59:03] But we also go through the practical steps for building a solar callus, like we mentioned,

[00:59:13] Julie: Yeah

[00:59:19] Karinda: I need to take that piece. Assessing different skin types, um, and lots of people had questions for us, Julie, about, um, about different parts of Australia. So we'll go into whether, you know, depending on where you're based, different strategies that you can use, and a whole sunrise to bedtime routine to help you optimize this biological clock that every function in your body is relying on.

[00:59:31] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[00:59:32] Karinda: No, I,

[00:59:32] Julie: dr-

[00:59:33] Karinda: yeah, you can

[00:59:34] Julie: fun fact in

[00:59:36] Karinda: Oh

[00:59:37] Julie: or may not choose to, to leave in?

[00:59:41] Karinda: Yeah, yeah.

[00:59:42] Julie: There was thrown out a statistic recently based on research

[00:59:48] Karinda: Hmm

[00:59:49] Julie: and I think it comes from Dr. Richard Weller's directly, that preventing one [01:00:00] case of melanoma by abstinence from the sun may result in 75 deaths from cardiovascular disease

[01:00:10] Karinda: Oh, shivers. Okay, that took me a... Okay, that took me a bit to comprehend.

[01:00:15] Julie: Yeah. So, so

[01:00:17] Karinda: Wow. Yep

[01:00:19] Julie: might, might stop one case of melanoma,

[01:00:24] Karinda: Yeah. But

[01:00:27] Julie: would result in 75 cases of death from cardiovascular disease. Because w- because in Australia, sure, we, we are the melanoma capital of the world,

[01:00:38] Karinda: Hmm

[01:00:39] Julie: but the, the single greatest cause of death in Australia is cardiovascular disease.

[01:00:45] Second to that is dementia, and they're that.

[01:00:49] Karinda: Yep

[01:00:49] Julie: Um, and I mean, there are benefits from sun exposure in, in, for neurodegenerative diseases as well, so dementia

[01:00:57] Karinda: Yeah

[01:00:58] Julie: falls in- into that [01:01:00] category, and sometimes is caught into the cardiovascular disease, net.

[01:01:04] Karinda: Yeah, right

[01:01:06] Julie: Yeah. So that's a good g- that's a really good reason to be getting pr- plenty of sun exposure.

[01:01:15] Karinda: Yeah. Yes. And, and, uh, I'm just thinking of all the, all the different points that we cover, in returning to our natural rhythm, our masterclass, all the different points that we cover about the cardiovascular system specifically, and how all the different frequencies of light are doing some-- are having some kind of beneficial impact on some degree of cardiovascular function.

[01:01:40] That is significant. That's a great-- That, that's a great framing of that statistic, actually. That's a great framing. I think people, people need to hear that, yeah. And we need to shift our priorities a bit, shift the lens a little bit that we're looking through. Yeah

[01:01:55] Julie: these, these messages of safety can be really effective. You know, there's a whole generation [01:02:00] of people who are still avoiding fat. There's a whole

[01:02:03] Karinda: yeah

[01:02:03] Julie: of people that are, you know, they're still avoiding sunshine in the s- in the same way.

[01:02:09] Karinda: Yeah

[01:02:10] Julie: It's gonna take a long time for these things to change back again, to have a m-more nuanced perspective

[01:02:16] Karinda: Absolutely, yeah.

[01:02:18] Julie: Mm-hmm.

[01:02:19] Karinda: one point that I did wanna mention today, when we were planning this episode, I was like, "Okay, I feel like there's gonna be lots of people asking if the sunlight has all this benefit and isn't as harmful as a lot of messaging portrays it to be, why isn't my doctor, why isn't my GP, why isn't my skin specialist telling me about getting this strategic sun exposure or getting me to assess my skin type to customize my, my sun limits for the day?

[01:02:49] Why isn't that happening?" And Julie has some

[01:02:53] Julie: I do have some insight on

[01:02:55] Karinda: Yes

[01:02:57] Julie: um, I had this conversation with doctors [01:03:00] just the other day.

[01:03:01] Karinda: Yep

[01:03:03] Julie: I- they, they have to work within parameters that, uh, are dictated to them by regulatory bodies. For a start, this message about sun exposure being giving is, relatively new,

[01:03:25] Karinda: Yeah

[01:03:26] Julie: it hasn't filtered through to clinical guidelines yet.

[01:03:29] Karinda: Yep

[01:03:30] Julie: And so they must err on the side of caution and go with the government-mandated guidelines

[01:03:39] Karinda: Yes.

[01:03:40] ,

[01:03:40] Karinda: Yep

[01:03:40] Julie: and they still say slip, slop, slap

[01:03:44] Karinda: Yep

[01:03:45] Julie: and, uh, all of those things. The QMIR Berghofer Research Centre in Queensland, uh, have put out a-- I think it was 2024, they put out some new guidelines

[01:03:59] Karinda: [01:04:00] Mm-hmm

[01:04:00] Julie: they, they are starting to acknowledge the benefits of sun exposure.

[01:04:04] Karinda: Yep

[01:04:04] Julie: But it's overlaid with this really difficult message because people kind of think that there's a one size fits all. It's all sun.

[01:04:12] Karinda: Yeah.

[01:04:13] Julie: or no sun,

[01:04:14] Karinda: Yeah

[01:04:15] Julie: n- it's, it's far more nuanced than that, which is why go in depth, with our recommendations in, in our-- master class.

[01:04:24] Karinda: Yes. Yeah. And it's why we're the nuanced naturopaths, 'cause th- this is the, this is the perfect area of gray, right? This is the perfect example of there are no black and white rules. There are no, all or nothing approaches. Like, we have to, we have to get smart and nuanced about this.

[01:04:45] Yeah

[01:04:45] Julie: And it has to be individualized.

[01:04:48] Karinda: Yes

[01:04:49] Julie: Even if your husband, partner, best friend, child, whatever, has a different ability,

[01:04:57] to produce [01:05:00] melanin in

[01:05:00] Karinda: Hmm

[01:05:00] Julie: or a different, sun risk calculation,

[01:05:05] Karinda: Yep

[01:05:05] Julie: you still have to look at your own

[01:05:07] Karinda: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. No general rules here.

[01:05:10] so yeah, I wanted, I, I really wanted, um, Julie's help in emphasizing that point because you might feel, if this information is new to you and you're feeling, like, inspired and, like, lit up about it, and you're, like, questioning a lot of things, you're like, "Ah, this is so important.

[01:05:27] Why is this- why am I not having this conversation at my doctor's office?" That's why. It's because they are, they do have guidelines that they have to adhere to. They can't just take the latest research and start putting it

[01:05:37] Julie: Hmm

[01:05:37] Karinda: in their consults. And, and I was saying to Julie that this is a great reminder that as helpful and as necessary as GPs are in the healthcare system, as helpful and as necessary as our complementary and alternative services that we offer as naturopaths are, there will always be some kind of degree where you [01:06:00] need to take your power back and put the power of your health and your healing in your own hands.

[01:06:08] And that might require looking at research yourself and trying to understand it. That might require looking at alternative sources of information and seeing how it resonates with you directly, leaving any dogma at the door, leaving any musts and shoulds at the door.

[01:06:24] And you know, and we really, we really hope that our masterclass, which is gonna be jam-packed as far as 90 minutes of information and, and Q&A goes, um, we hope our masterclass can help fill that gap where you might not be getting this information from your primary care provider because they are limited by no fault of their own.

[01:06:44] But we have so much research and insight and guidelines that we wanna share that you can... that are practical enough, that are simple enough for you to start implementing yourself. Because ultimately, we can help on the journey, but ultimately, like, [01:07:00] everyone's health is in their own hands, and no one's gonna do anything for them, and you can't wait for someone to say, "Hey, do this.

[01:07:07] Hey, look into this," you know?

[01:07:08] Julie: Hmm

[01:07:09] Karinda: so we're really, we're passionate about, self-directed, self-led education. Yeah

[01:07:14] Julie: Yeah. I, I, I... Well, one of my patients who is an abs- absolute inspiration, um, she's in her 70s. She made a complete turnaround in her health. She was going down the trajectory of, of many other people of her generation, where back pain meant medication, which meant side effects, which, you know, she was heading down that path, and she completely turned things around. she said, "You know, I've decided that I need to be in charge of my health, and my responsibility is to seek the advice [01:08:00] of a number of different practitioners so that I can make good decisions. Because I know my body, and they have the information to guide me." "And I..." "And sometimes," she said, "it's, it's, it's difficult because I get conflicting information." she said, "At the end of the day, I have to be the one that decides and to take the responsibility f- for my own health." Just, just, she's just inspirational.

[01:08:30] Karinda: That's, that's beautiful and incredibly wise. And I think that's, that's definitely a shared goal for both of us, hey, is for more people to come to that conclusion. That you're rarely gonna get an answer that works for you if you're just listening to one external source, if you're just, you know

[01:08:48] Julie: includes Google Chat

[01:08:50] Karinda: Yes, yes.

[01:08:52] Oh my God. Or, or

[01:08:53] Julie: 'Cause that's not even an answer. That's just, can be sludge,

[01:08:58] Karinda: Yes. Yes. And it's just

[01:08:59] Julie: AI [01:09:00] slop.

[01:09:00] Karinda: More to have to sift through and, ugh, yeah. I'm literally imagining, like, walking through, like, thick mud and having to, like, find your way to clarity. Ugh. Go- oh my God, let us, let us help. Let us help.

[01:09:15] I'm sure from this episode alone, you've got lots of things to think about and to consider in your own life.

[01:09:20] And any resources and references that we've mentioned will be listed in the description below. But if you're keen to take this deeper, especially if you feel like you've optimized your diet, maybe you're taking some supplements, but you're still feeling like there's something missing, or you're still feeling there's areas of your health that you would like to improve, light could be a missing puzzle piece.

[01:09:43] We invite you to join us for our masterclass, Returning to Our Natural Rhythm. We are going to run that live on Thursday, July 2nd at 6:30 PM.

[01:09:54] limited spots are available. The link to claim your spot will be below, and we would love to see you there. Lots [01:10:00] of resources and guidance and practical tips will be divulged.

[01:10:06] Julie: Yes. Yes

[01:10:08] Karinda: And in the meantime, Let us know if there's anything you would like us to chat about. Sorry that the break was, uh, a little bit wide. And stay nuanced.

[01:10:17] Julie: Yeah. Thanks for joining.

[01:10:20] Karinda: Thanks for joining us. Take care.

[01:10:21] Julie: All right, see ya

[01:10:23] Karinda: Bye